Welcome 8th Pick from Brooklyn

gourimoko said:

If we keep the pick and it's not in the Top 5, then that was a fail...

The trade is over and done with, I'm not interested in debating about it. The point now is to maximize the assets we have today. And as I see it, that means completing additional trades prior to the deadline..

I'm looking at Thomas and that pick and hoping we find suitors to take them on and the Cavs get equal value back.

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You know, Gour, I was right there with you on the trade IT train when the trade was announced. But looking around the league, I just don't see anything available now, or with the potential to come available that I would be comfortable trading both the Brooklyn pick and IT for. Cousins is the only potential candidate, and I've soured completely on trading for a big.

That pick may not be a guaranteed top-3, but it's definitely a top-8. I'd like to see where things stand at the draft in 2018 before jumping to conclusions.

gourimoko said:

If we keep the pick and it's not in the Top 5, then that was a fail...

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I'd be mostly ok with that assessment and would agree that their evaluation of the risk/reward of the trade did not materialize in the optimal way.

But that does not get determined until after about 7:40PM EST on Draft Lottery Night. A good part of the value in the Nets pick is not just their hoped/presumed position after the final game but the dynamic of having an unprotected pick in a lottery system.

Since 2007, 15 of the 33 top three picks have been teams that jumped up from the 4-8 slots on lottery night

So many factors in this deal that affect the ultimate grade:

-Do we win the chip this year?

-What the pick ends up being, whether an actual selection or player received by trading the pick.

-Does IT have full health in the second half of season and playoffs? Does IT/Crowder have a net positive contribution against GS vs Kyrie alone or the opposite?

-Does Ante develop into a legit top8 rotational player and/or player who develops significant trade value around the league.

-Was there even a comparable offer on the table, given the trade demand, the remaining years left on the deal, and the teams that felt comfortable trading considerable assets for Kyrie?

But certainly my opinion on the trade is biased due to my other opinion that Kyrie returning to the team after the other players learned of the trade demand and drama of the summer would have been cancerous in a way that was detrimental to maximizing on the court play. Which is unprovable in either direction as it's a scenario that now can not play out.

I think Kyrie's potentially cancerous affect on the team was overblown since Lebron runs the team and Lebron was willing to work things out. However, I think Kyrie's intent to not show up for training camp was potentially real with how Kyrie is not as mature as Melo or Kobe, both of whom acted more professionally in similar situations. I also think Kyrie's stats were unlikely to be better than last years, the opposite situation of the underutilized Kevin Love. So I'm not as against the trade as much as I was initially.

The medical people are predicting a full Isaiah Thomas recovery. If he gets back to his old self and some team is willing to overpay for him before the trade deadline for pick(s), he has to be traded. It's a mistake to get overly sentimental towards the roster. Other than Lebron and Wade, everyone is on the trading block for the right price until we're considered even money against Golden State in Vegas.

sleepmaster said:

The medical people are predicting a full Isaiah Thomas recovery. If he gets back to his old self and some team is willing to overpay for him before the trade deadline for pick(s), he has to be traded. It's a mistake to get overly sentimental towards the roster.

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Well, you trade anyone if someone is willing to "overpay."

IT's trade value is going to drop as the season progresses simply because of his contract status. I think it's really unlikely we manage to get value for him in terms of a player equally able to help us win a title this year.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Well, you trade anyone if someone is willing to "overpay."

IT's trade value is going to drop as the season progresses simply because of his contract status. I think it's really unlikely we manage to get value for him in terms of a player equally able to help us win a title this year.

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It's been mentioned Jeremy Lin might fetch a first-rounder at the trade deadline. If a team overpaying for IT nets us a decent first-round pick instead of a player equally able to help win a title this year, I still think you make the trade. Others on the team will just have to pick up the slack.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Well, you trade anyone if someone is willing to "overpay."

IT's trade value is going to drop as the season progresses simply because of his contract status. I think it's really unlikely we manage to get value for him in terms of a player equally able to help us win a title this year.

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Plus, given his current salary it'd be next to impossible to do any type of 1-for-1 trade involving IT while getting back a player that still makes you a contender. You also have to find someone that will pay him or you might end up having to attach other valuable assets just to make the trade work.

Vegas has us as huge underdogs against Golden State with or without IT.

I don't think we should trade IT, he will have very little value to other teams but could potentially be the difference between us making the Finals and not. We are a significant underdog to GS even with IT but without IT coming back healthy things are that much worse in terms of filling the gap of Kyrie's lost offensive production. You can forget even an underdog long-shot chance at a competitive Finals.

I do think we should see if we can trade the NJ pick for DeMarcus Cousins. Cousins is not just any "big", he is a skilled 3-point shooter with a very well rounded game who, while not the most mobile guy in the world, is not limited to the paint on defense either. NBA history shows that multiple stars in their prime are the key to competing for championships. A dozen "pretty good" players is not the roster that wins championships, multiple stars around at least one superstar are. If we want to get another star to match with Lebron while he is still a superstar, we have to act with some urgency.

with that said, I doubt we'll trade because Gilbert saves a huge amount of money -- maybe $100 million+ including tax over the life of the contract -- by using the pick on a rookie rather than trading for a star he has to re-sign.

Since I'm seeing people talk about how the Nets look good in the preseason and are clearly "well coached" and what not, I'd like to remind people that the Cavs looked really good in their first preseason sans LeBron, started 5-5 on the season, and still broke the record for the longest losing streak in the history of professional sports.

Cassity14 said:

Since I'm seeing people talk about how the Nets look good in the preseason and are clearly "well coached" and what not, I'd like to remind people that the Cavs looked really good in their first preseason sans LeBron, started 5-5 on the season, and still broke the record for the longest losing streak in the history of professional sports.

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Remember guys.. The Browns were 4-0 in preseason...

cavsfever said:

I don't think we should trade IT, he will have very little value to other teams but could potentially be the difference between us making the Finals and not. We are a significant underdog to GS even with IT but without IT coming back healthy things are that much worse in terms of filling the gap of Kyrie's lost offensive production. You can forget even an underdog long-shot chance at a competitive Finals.

I do think we should see if we can trade the NJ pick for DeMarcus Cousins. Cousins is not just any "big", he is a skilled 3-point shooter with a very well rounded game who, while not the most mobile guy in the world, is not limited to the paint on defense either. NBA history shows that multiple stars in their prime are the key to competing for championships. A dozen "pretty good" players is not the roster that wins championships, multiple stars around at least one superstar are. If we want to get another star to match with Lebron while he is still a superstar, we have to act with some urgency.

with that said, I doubt we'll trade because Gilbert saves a huge amount of money -- maybe $100 million+ including tax over the life of the contract -- by using the pick on a rookie rather than trading for a star he has to re-sign.

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While I don't disagree with most of what you said, it's becoming harder for me to imagine Cousins being the guy to put the Cavs over the top given how they want to play. They'd be completely switching their offensive and defensive scheme/philosophy, unless you can somehow make Cousins happy coming off the bench.

The situation is even more complicated given his free agent status along with James and IT. Though unlikely, the possibility would still remain that the Cavs would lose LBJ, IT, Cousins, and the pick all in one offseason. Holy disaster. On the flipside, resigning all three of those guys would equal $90 mill or more.

If the Cavs are trading the pick, they need a stud SG or 3/4 in return. Basically any C aside from Anthony Davis totally changes what they want to do offensively.

It might be mildly intriguing to look at some three team trades. Cousins to WASH, Beal (maybe a pick/player) to CLE, Nets pick to NO is kind of interesting, but Beal's injury history is a bit worrisome.

At this point the Cavs are likely better off waiting until the off-season to see who might become available. Hell, if Cousins leaves/is traded Davis might be the next to move over the summer. If that Nets pick hits #1 the Cavs would be the first in line to collect.

Cassity14 said:

Since I'm seeing people talk about how the Nets look good in the preseason and are clearly "well coached" and what not, I'd like to remind people that the Cavs looked really good in their first preseason sans LeBron, started 5-5 on the season, and still broke the record for the longest losing streak in the history of professional sports.

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They can be "well coached" as much as they want according to people here, but they don't have the players for said coach and the way he wants to play just yet. I'm with you, the overreaction is too much.

They're small, they are loaded with poor defenders, and are loaded with streaky, inconsistent shooters in a system that wants to play up tempo at a league leading pace and shoot a bunch of 3s. They're going to shoot themselves and run themselves out of games, on top of games where they will just be outclassed talent wise.

Be surprised if there are 3 teams worse than them, let alone 5 or 6 like some are suggesting.

cavsfever said:

I don't think we should trade IT, he will have very little value to other teams but could potentially be the difference between us making the Finals and not. We are a significant underdog to GS even with IT but without IT coming back healthy things are that much worse in terms of filling the gap of Kyrie's lost offensive production. You can forget even an underdog long-shot chance at a competitive Finals.

I do think we should see if we can trade the NJ pick for DeMarcus Cousins. Cousins is not just any "big", he is a skilled 3-point shooter with a very well rounded game who, while not the most mobile guy in the world, is not limited to the paint on defense either. NBA history shows that multiple stars in their prime are the key to competing for championships. A dozen "pretty good" players is not the roster that wins championships, multiple stars around at least one superstar are. If we want to get another star to match with Lebron while he is still a superstar, we have to act with some urgency.

with that said, I doubt we'll trade because Gilbert saves a huge amount of money -- maybe $100 million+ including tax over the life of the contract -- by using the pick on a rookie rather than trading for a star he has to re-sign.

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I'm not sure what the market value on a healthy IT is, maybe a mid-first rounder if Lin would fetch a late-first rounder. If so, I'd go for that. It's more important to keep Lebron for 2018-2019 than it is to win a championship in 2017-2018 and I think we can beat Boston without IT. To keep Lebron for 2018-2019, the 2018-2019 roster is more important than the 2017-2018 roster and IT is going to want a lot of money to be on the 2018-2019 roster while an additional 2018 first-round pick could help persuade Lebron to stay.

I'd think it's an easy call which is more appealing to Lebron, three first-rounders in a good draft or two first-rounders plus IT's new contract occupying 20% of the cap. The first one is better for trading for stars, or drafting young studs, or some combination of both. Maybe you dangle the Brooklyn pic plus the first-rounder from trading IT plus Kevin Love, Zizic, and Cedi for Anthony Davis and see if the Pelicans bite. Screw over Boston's last best chance to get a star big man since no way does Brad Stevens go for Demarcus Cousins.

sleepmaster said:

I'm not sure what the market value on a healthy IT is, maybe a mid-first rounder if Lin would fetch a late-first rounder. If so, I'd go for that. It's more important to keep Lebron for 2018-2019 than it is to win a championship in 2017-2018 and I think we can beat Boston without IT. To keep Lebron for 2018-2019, the 2018-2019 roster is more important than the 2017-2018 roster and IT is going to want a lot of money to be on the 2018-2019 roster while an additional 2018 first-round pick could help persuade Lebron to stay.

I'd think it's an easy call which is more appealing to Lebron, three first-rounders in a good draft or two first-rounders plus IT's new contract occupying 20% of the cap. The first one is better for trading for stars, or drafting young studs, or some combination of both. Maybe you dangle the Brooklyn pic plus the first-rounder from trading IT plus Kevin Love, Zizic, and Cedi for Anthony Davis and see if the Pelicans bite. Screw over Boston's last best chance to get a star big man since no way does Brad Stevens go for Demarcus Cousins.

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If I still smoked, I'd ask for some of whatever you have

Keep IT and have him help you this year and just let him walk after that. His injury killed his value and he doesn't have any.