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Racial Tension in the U.S.

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Where should the thread go from here?

  • Racial Tension in the U.S.

    Votes: 16 51.6%

  • Extremist Views on the U.S.

    Votes: 2 6.5%

  • Mending Years of Racial Stereotypes.

    Votes: 2 6.5%

  • Protest Culture.

    Votes: 1 3.2%

  • Racist Idiots in the News.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 10 32.3%
  • Total voters
    31
Nathan S said:
I'm still mad that you compared WWII vets to the alt-right (I have WWII vets in my family and another WWII vet was one of my biggest role models growing up), so I'm not going to say sorry yet, but maybe later :chuckle:
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:chuckle: That's fair.

I'm not trying to compare the two groups as people. One group stormed Normandy, the other group stormed the tiki torch aisle. All I mean is that I do not think that WWII soldiers as a whole would be outraged about alt-right beliefs, because those beliefs were not considered fringe or extreme 75-80 years ago.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
Dude, I wasn't born yesterday. That was not the point you made, however much you may be trying to backtrack now. Why not just admit you were wrong?

You made a bald, unqualified statement about attitudes towards race in the military as a whole, based on your flawed assumption that such integration was actually widespread:



That's a broad statement about the actual attitudes of WW2 vets as a whole, not just to that relatively small percentage with a black platoon. And you made that broad point about attitudes within the military to counter the claim of racism among WW2 vets. The revisionism into the far more narrow claim you are trying to make now "well, I was really only talking about that small percentage of WW2 vets that worked in integrated companies" undercuts your entire point about only a small percentage being racist.

However, I do absolutely agree with your point about how working closely with people of another race in the military breaks down racist attitudes.

But consider logically where that takes you - we've now had more than sixty years since Truman desegregated the military. That's sixty years of people of different races working side by side on the military, and not just in specifically integrated companies (all non-combat units in WW2, by the way), but in the entire military.

So that is sixty years of tens of millions of vets serving this country, reducing their racial prejudices, and then bringing those new and improved racial attitudes back into society as a whole.

By your own argument, it is almost possible not to conclude that racial attitudes by whites both in the military and in the civilian world (which also became much more integrated) have improved significantly since the WW2 generation.
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I'm sorry you misinterpreted me...

I'm glad that, in general, racist voices hold less sway in our society than they once did. Then and now, though, there exists a minority of Americans pushing racist views and trying to make those views catch on in the mainstream. Progress is not inevitable...if we respond passively to those voices, they may well get their wish.
 
This conversation is so far into semantics to justify a larger point it's no longer worth discussion. At this point it's two guys in their early 20s telling everyone what people two generations prior all felt. Who isn't insulted at this point? It's time to move on here.
 
Nathan S said:
I'm sorry you misinterpreted me...
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I didn't. You just don't want to admit you made a bogus assumption, so you're pretending you never made the point in the first place.

Progress is not inevitable...if we respond passively to those voices, they may well get their wish.
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What do you mean by "respond passively?". As opposed to...what?

Nobody is arguing that racism shouldn't be condemned. The question has always been whether mass attempts to disrupt/obstruct lawful marches even by racist pigs is the appropriate tactic.

Because I'd argue that the primary effect of that is to draw attention to those views - free advertising, and to strengthen their claims of persecution by leftist elements that want to silence dissent.

That plays right into their hands. All these ridiculous student protests against free speech, the "microaggresions" that confuse words with actual violence, and the efforts to obstruct/disrupt rallies makes them stronger.
 
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Randolphkeys said:
This conversation is so far into semantics to justify a larger point it's no longer worth discussion. At this point it's two guys in their early 20s telling everyone what people two generations prior all felt. Who isn't insulted at this point? It's time to move on here.
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There is a worthwhile point in all this, though. Has there been real progress made against racist attitudes? Have things gotten better or worse over the last 60+ years? Looking at attitudes within the huge mass of Americans who served in the WW2 era military, as compared to now, is certainly one way to quantify that.

And if the military has been a positive force over the last 60+ years in changing those attitudes, doesn't the continued influence the military has on the rest of society (and will continue to have moving forward), suggest that racism should continue to diminish?
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
I didn't. You just don't want to admit you made a bogus assumption, so you're pretending you never made the point in the first place.
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Yes, you did. As much as it irks you, you don't get to choose what I believe.


The Human Q-Tip said:
What do you mean by "respond passively?". As opposed to...what?

Nobody is arguing that racism shouldn't be condemned. The question has always been whether mass attempts to disrupt/obstruct lawful marches even by racist pigs is the appropriate tactic.

Because I'd argue that the primary affect of that is to draw attention to those views - free advertising, and to strengthen their claims of persecution by leftist elements that want to silence dissent.

That plays right into their hands. All these ridiculous student protests against free speech, the "microaggresions" that confuse words with actual violence, and the efforts to obstruct/disrupt rallies makes them stronger.
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Mostly agree; from a tactical standpoint my impression is that violent disruption of these marches is a bad idea pushed by hormonal idiots who are more concerned with winning a dick measuring contest with their far-left friends than they are with actually limiting the spread of alt-right beliefs.

I don't see people on the right condemning these marchers though...I see them giving the marchers a pat on the back for not killing anyone. It echos the "very fine people" comment by Trump, reinforcing the idea that these are just some harmless everyday Americans doing their thing. They're not.
 
If the WWII vets rose from their graves today they would be viciously attacked as sexists, white supremacists and gun nuts.
In fact, by the current standard of progressives, 99% of everyone who ever lived are vile and evil creatures.
 
Hell, 2008 Hillary would be run off college campuses today as a bigot for her homophobic views on gay marriage.
 
Whittaker said:
If the WWII vets rose from their graves today they would be viciously attacked as sexists, white supremacists and gun nuts.
In fact, by the current standard of progressives, 99% of everyone who ever lived are vile and evil creatures.
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If a guy grows up in a society that teaches him that blacks, or jews, or gays, are inferior to him, and he ends up believing that, does that make him a vile and evil creature? I don't think so, and I strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
There is a worthwhile point in all this, though. Has there been real progress made against racist attitudes? Have things gotten better or worse over the last 60+ years? Looking at attitudes within the huge mass of Americans who served in the WW2 era military, as compared to now, is certainly one way to quantify that.

And if the military has been a positive force over the last 60+ years in changing those attitudes, doesn't the continued influence the military has on the rest of society (and will continue to have moving forward), suggest that racism should continue to diminish?
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I think you would have to begin discussing the economic impact of WWII as an important factor, not just suggesting the War led to a kind of military philosophical shift. Eisenhower led as a general, but due to the rest of the Western World being bombed back to the stone age, he spent money as president on making America the priority of government spending.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. [...] Is there no other way the world may live?"

-Eisenhower 1953

Historians can and will manipulate the past to justify the present political landscape on both sides. It's older than the Roman Empire. However, there should never be one narrative taken as the real history. History has multiple perspectives and always will. The heart of racial tension has a lot to do with the median earning power of the disenfranchised. The BLM movement and Charlottesville movements both have to do with disenfranchisement, race just gets the brunt of the aggression when economics is the underlying cause.
 
Nathan S said:
If a guy grows up in a society that teaches him that blacks, or jews, or gays, are inferior to him, and he ends up believing that, does that make him a vile and evil creature? I don't think so, and I strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way.
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edited
 
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Whittaker said:
I don't believe in blaming society for individual sins. Society is nothing more than a collection of individuals. Society doesn't shape individuals, individuals shape society.
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I don't doubt that individuals shape society. But society certainly shapes individuals, too. That should be obvious.
 
Nathan S said:
If a guy grows up in a society that teaches him that blacks, or jews, or gays, are inferior to him, and he ends up believing that, does that make him a vile and evil creature? I don't think so, and I strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way.
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This was my argument a few weeks ago when I said that German WW2 soldiers weren't all evil people and you and jack called me a Nazi sympathizer for it.....
 
MediumBaller said:
Hahahaha. Just think for a second about the beliefs that "WWII vets" held. They were just as "racist" and "bigoted", if not more so than the people on the alt-right.
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leaving-now-grandpa-simpsons.gif
 
Nathan S said:
I don't doubt that individuals shape society. But society certainly shapes individuals, too. That should be obvious.
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I didn't word my previous post very well. I guess what I mean to say is nobody else but the individual is responsible for their sins. Societal influence is always there but its no excuse for racism etc.
 
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