LennoxLewis
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If I'm wrong someone please correct, but this seems like an oxymoron.
And yes this response is confusing, especially in regards to what I posted.
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The General Terrorist Rampage Thread
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And yes this response is confusing, especially in regards to what I posted.
Wrathe
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I understand Palestine isn't a country, but I believe that's who the other is he was referring to. Having skin in the game or not doesn't mean you don't have an opinion, it just means you don't stand to benefit from any outcome.
It's a tough situation over there, but I would side w/ Israel as well.
kosis
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Bro.
MediumBaller
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Free Palestine. I wish the US would actually approach this from a neutral perspective.
gourimoko
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Agreed.. Palestinians should be treated like human beings, and Israelis should be able to live in peace. Either get busy creating two states for two people, or acknowledge that's no long possible and begin creating a single, bi-national state.
But "siding" with Israel, in this instance, seems to mean supporting the continued practice of occupation.
MediumBaller
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I won't pretend to be a Middle East expert, but it seems like the US is trying to act like a "peacemaker" while also being more favorable to Israel. That just isn't going to result in a good solution for both of the sides.
gourimoko
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The US doesn't have much of a role anymore. Trump pretty much abdicated that responsibility with the embassy decision.
MediumBaller
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So what is going to happen?
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Absolutely nobody knows. And don't trust anyone who says they do.
The truth is almost nothing has happened there in terms of peace in decades. The 2000 Camp David Peace Talks were the last time things really appeared close. Since then, every attempt has fallen flat. Every President comes in to office hoping to be the one to hit a home run on that issue, and every one of them strikes out.
As I said before, the only logic to Trump's move is the logic of a dealmaker. If the two sides cannot agree with the situation/facts as they now stand, then you have to change up the situation. You do that by leaning more heavily in favor of one party or the other in the hopes that you will coax them off their stance. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, or that he picked the right way to lean. But there is a logic to it.
gourimoko
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Right now there is considerable movement within the Palestinian community and those who have historically advocated for them (in the region and in Europe) around the idea of abandoning the Two State Solution and moving towards a Single State Solution.
This would effectively mean the Palestinians would no longer advocate for any land concessions or a state of their own, but instead, pursue a case of human rights violations against the State of Israel. They would immediately ask for equal civil rights to all other Israelis, and effectively you'd have a situation unfold similar to South Africa.
gourimoko
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I don't think so. I think this move is meant to distract from domestic issues. I don't think the Trump administration has any idea what it's doing, and the State Department has been absolutely gutted. There is no indication whatsoever that this move was the precursor to peace negotiations.
In fact, Trump's policy seems to have ended any US role in peace negotiations as it is. So if there was a plan here, when does it go into effect? When do we see the Palestinians agreeing to sit down with the Americans and Israelis and discuss terms? That's not happening, not now, and not in the foreseeable future.
So with that being understood, the more likely scenario, given Trump's advisers argued against such a move, is that Trump acted on a whim, and without some grand strategy.
@MediumBaller
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MediumBaller
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So right now they don't have equal civil rights to other Israelis? I've heard about their poor treatment but don't the extent of it.
gourimoko
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There's a distinction between Israeli Arabs and "Palestinians," in that the term "Palestinian" is most often used for an ethnically Palestinian person who does not have Israeli citizenship, whereas an Israeli Arab may or may not be ethnically Palestinian but is an Arab and does have Israeli citizenship. The vast majority of Palestinians do not have Israeli citizenship and thus have very limited rights (rights, in the practical legal sense come from a State).
The Palestinians are under military occupation and have been for generations. Israeli Arabs are ... effectively discriminated against, rather severely...
While many will try to play games about the extent of this discrimination, it exists, even within the confines of the law. Israel has it's problems with racism, just like many other countries and it's not limited to Israeli Arabs but plenty of Israeli Jews who aren't Ashkenazi as well (racism is rarely limited to one group)... but that's another topic that's rather complex.
Regarding the Palestinians, the argument has been that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are effectively "territories" that are either (a) stateless, or (b) in the beginnings of forming a national entity. So, Israel occupies these areas as protectors of both the people in them, as well as the State of Israel itself until such time as a negotiated peace settlement can be established that "guarantees" the Israelis certain preconditions that have been non-negotiable for decades. Thus, in effect, "keeping the peace" through perpetual occupation.
However, over the decades, settlements and continued creeping annexations have effectively turned what would have been a Palestinian State (~1967 borders) into a piece of swiss cheese. There is no contiguous Palestine, or even a contiguous West Bank -- and whenever you hear someone tell you about a peace deal that the Palestinians turned down, keep in mind, they turned down the creation of a Palestinian de-militarized "state" which, like it is today, would have consisted of 4-6 Apartheid-like Bantustans (see: South African Apartheid).
It's a very very unfortunate circumstance for the people living there.
But their conditions are.. abysmal; particularly those living in Gaza.
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Didn't Israel withdraw from the Gaza Strip way back in 2005, and in fact remove by force Israelis who did not want to leave?