The Trump Administration (just Trump) Thread

TyGuy said:

The larger point is that it's not racist to call a place a shithole.

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It's not that he called one place a shithole; it's the entire context of the discussion about very real-life decisions regarding immigration. We've been over this already.

Saying Nigerians shouldn't be allowed in to the United States because they come from shithole African countries and they won't return to their huts, while asking why we can't get more immigrants from Norway could reasonably be considered a sentiment derived from racist feelings, right?

gourimoko said:

I already told you I've done this myself; typically when talking about Cleveland.... But if you were to ask me seriously, in a meeting with Congressional leaders, I would definitely not refer to Cleveland, Ohio as a "shithole." It's actually a nice place to live, just not my preference.

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I mean, do people really not understand that we expect the President of the United States to be held to a higher standard than John Q. Asshole? Yes, I'm sure everyone here has called a place a shithole. However, as you said, we didn't do it in a meeting with Congress, and I'm sure the bulk of us wouldn't do it in a meeting with Congress, nor do it at all if we were President of the United States and expected to be held accountable publicly for the shit we said.

TyGuy said:

The larger point is that it's not racist to call a place a shithole. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be careful with who he shares his comments with.

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It's not racist in and of itself to call a place a shithole, no. But when you frame it in the context of not wanting people from "shithole" African countries to come to America, and why don't we get more immigrants from Norway, it becomes, at minimum, a racially charged comment. And given all the other racist comments Trump has made over the years, I don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

ACisKING said:

It’s probably some combination of both I’m sure. I’m not exactly sure what you fear though.

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It's not a question of fearing anyone. It's simply a question of who is most likely to assimilate quickly, and be a more productive immigrant person.

Look, what is generally referred to as "western culture" is called that because it is not uniform across the globe. It is a combination of religious tolerance, respect for political dissent, equal treatment for men and women under the law, attitudes towards violence, respect for democratic traditions, etc... People who were educated and raised in those countries are more likely to hold those values. Do you disagree?

So, to the extent some believe those are values worthwhile preserving even if they are not held everywhere in the world, bringing in people who already are accepting of those views seems a smart move. I'd point out that doesn't mean that nobody else in the world share some of those values. Some of the elites in some of the former British colonies may even hold to those thing more strongly than do many westerners.

TyGuy said:

The only thing I heard was that he said the place was a shithole in a private conversation. Going on that it doesn't sound racist to me.

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Did you read any of the reporting from non-Breitbart sources? I dunno, like from the Times or Washington Post?

The Human Q-Tip said:

There is certainly is ignorance in what Trump said. The truth is that we get a lot of the best people from a lot of those countries. They really make outstanding immigrants, and I've actually posted articles here before about how they are fantastic additions to our country. And, not all of those countries deserved to be lumped together -- things like literacy rates, etc., can vary pretty widely.

However, I do think there is some merit in not taking large number of uneducated immigrants from those countries that are, to some extent, shitholes, because we're clearly not getting just the best and brightest.

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I understand all of this and agree with most of it....but however Trump meant it, it came out ignorant as hell, and it was wrong. You don't call an entire continent a "shithole", especially when we have millions of American citizens from those said "shitholes".

I've defended Trump on multiple issues, and certainly recognize his unique ability to butcher the English language. He's as polished as a turd. I get it.

He fucked this one up. Assuming he said it (he did), I think he should own it and apologize.

TyGuy said:

So nobody has refereed to any other place as a shithole? Other than huber?

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You seem to have a hard time separating a bunch of slapdick message board posters with the President of the United States, who said this in an immigration meeting surrounded by influential people on both sides of the aisle. Fucking Dick Durbin was there, this wasn't a private conversation amongst friends.

This isn't folksy missteps by a first time politician, he's been in office for a year. And no, I've never personally labeled entire countries as shitholes and denigrated the people with in. The fact that you so casually accept that leads me your comfort level in ignorantly doing so.

You don't have to play the fool here, should stop.

This is becoming embarrassing for you.

gourimoko said:

Did you read any of the reporting from non-Breitbart sources? I dunno, like from the Times or Washington Post?

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Pfft...liberal rags.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Okay. So 1) you think there is plenty of this stuff out there, and 2) it's a bad look for the country.

So...what is gained by Dick Durbin making these comments public?

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I wouldn’t have done it if I was Dick Durbin. I was only answering your hypothetical about what the left’s reaction was. It’s based entirely upon my own opinion and the opinions of those I know on the left who I talked to about it. To us, this is the sort of thing we feel truly hurts our soft power and standing internationally. It’s hardly exciting to have a president we all know is incompetent do yet another incompetent thing when it actually hurts us as a country.

I can’t speak for Dick Durbin. Maybe he did it to get his name out. Maybe he did it because he, unlike me, feels that they need even more dirt on Trump (to me we are already oversaturated with it). Maybe he feels obligated to his voters to inform them of such an absurd comment by the sitting president. Maybe he was just playing politics as you suggest. He certainly was under no obligation to keep anything in that meeting a secret. And stuff could have leaked anyway. But I probably wouldn’t have leaked it.

TyGuy said:

I want people to name places they refered to as a shithole in their life and let’s compare it to Haiti.

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Not even going to lie. Stopped calling places things like that once I moved to Cleveland. Everyone thought I was crazy for going to "a place where the river caught fire". I fell in love with the city and the people and I don't listen to stupid people and their stupid opinions about things they don't know anything about anymore. Doesn't matter whether it is the character of a place or a person.

gourimoko said:

Umm.. So we can all know what our President said and make informed decisions about it?

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Such as...what? What "informed decision" is there to be made?

What obligation does Dick Durbin have to Trump....

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He doesn't have any obligation to Trump. The obligation would be to the country as a whole in not deliberately disseminating information that will damage our foreign relations. Some of that type of stuff was in those Snowden documents as well - disparaging things about foreign countries/politicians that damaged the U.S. when they were made public.

Apparently, there also was a lot of that kind of stuff in the Hillary Clinton emails as well. Nasty things that were said about various people they dealt with overseas, etc., that would have been damaging to the U.S. (as well as to Hillary personally) if released in unredacted form. Perhaps embarrassing to the sitting Administration as well.

So the question is -- do you think all of those things should have been released in unredacted form, so that both the American people and foreign countries could see exactly what Hillary Clinton and everyone on those email chains thought about various foreign countries, American political leaders, etc..? I mean, since you're talking about the value of making "informed decisions" about our President, shouldn't that logic have applied even more so when the country was trying to decide who would be President for the next four years?

I don't recall anyone really arguing for that.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Look, what is generally referred to as "western culture" is called that because it is not uniform across the globe. It is a combination of religious tolerance, respect for political dissent, equal treatment for men and women under the law, attitudes towards violence, respect for democratic traditions, etc... People who were educated and raised in those countries are more likely to hold those values. Do you disagree?

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We strive towards those ideals, but we've not achieved anything close to them in reality. We don't have religious tolerance or equal treatment under the law, respect for democratic ideals (like the right to representation, maybe?) ..

With that being said, those ideals are why many people from places that don't have that same cultural background strive to get here, so that they can live up to those lofty goals; and that may not be true for someone coming from a place like Norway whom may consider their culture both freer and fairer than our own thus not having the same aspirational goals as an African, Asian or South-American immigrant.

The Human Q-Tip said:

So, to the extent some believe those are values worthwhile preserving even if they are not held everywhere in the world, bringing in people who already are accepting of those views seems a smart move. I'd point out that doesn't mean that nobody else in the world share some of those values. Some of the elites in some of the former British colonies may even hold to those thing more strongly than do many westerners.

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Yeah, I would disagree with preference for "westerners" for numerous reasons including those aforementioned.

Cavatt said:

Not even going to lie. Stopped calling places things like that once I moved to Cleveland. Everyone thought I was crazy for going to "a place where the river caught fire". I fell in love with the city and the people and I don't listen to stupid people and their stupid opinions about things they don't know anything about anymore. Doesn't matter whether it is the character of a place or a person.

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Again a place can be a shithole and have great people. That's not in contention. I judge people individually, not by where they come from, their ethnicity or economic class.

Yeah, I just don't buy that you don't refer to certain places as undesirable (chose your colorful language). Unless you're the most righteous person there is.

ACisKING said:

I wouldn’t have done it if I was Dick Durbin.

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I sure as shit would've. Fuck Donald Trump and his immigration policy.



SIDENOTE:
Honestly, I don't call any place a shithole, and that comes directly from my Cleveland heritage. There are many misconceptions about our town nationally, and it's a shame that people will use it as a punchline without having even visited. I hate when someone takes someone else's home, whether it's Milwaukee or Detroit or Haiti or anywhere, and turn it into a joke. It's dismissive, it's usually ignorant, and worst of all, it's lazy. It doesn't get much less creative than poking fun at a city or a group of people while they're down.

Have I told a Detroit joke before? Yes. Have I laughed at a good joke about a city/state/country? Of course. But it'd be great if we tried to do it less in my personal opinion.

I can't comment on this subject because I fear my head will explode.

That being said, many of you need to take a step away from this thread. It's very hard if not impossible to change people's political opinions. Trump supporters will seemingly go to no end to defend him. Anti-Trumpers will bring an avalanche of evidence as to why they dislike him. Neither side is really making an impact on the other at this point.

Please take a step away from this thread before it gets out of control.

ACisKING said:

I wouldn’t have done it if I was Dick Durbin. I was only answering your hypothetical about what the left’s reaction was. It’s based entirely upon my own opinion and the opinions of those I know on the left who I talked to about it. To us, this is the sort of thing we feel truly hurts our soft power and standing internationally. It’s hardly exciting to have a president we all know is incompetent do yet another incompetent thing when it actually hurts us as a country.

I can’t speak for Dick Durbin. Maybe he did it to get his name out. Maybe he did it because he, unlike me, feels that they need even more dirt on Trump (to me we are already oversaturated with it). Maybe he feels obligated to his voters to inform them of such an absurd comment by the sitting president. Maybe he was just playing politics as you suggest. He certainly was under no obligation to keep anything in that meeting a secret. And stuff could have leaked anyway. But I probably wouldn’t have leaked it.

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Politically, it gives the democrats a stronger position now. Trump looks like an asshole in public, in regards to immigration, and they have 1 week to strike a deal.

I’ll have to go back and check, but I’m pretty sure nowhere in “The Art of a Deal” does it suggest making a public dick out of yourself, with 1 week left in a tough negotiation. But maybe there’s a hidden chapter....