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2019 Browns Off Season/Roster Discussion

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Nphan said:
If you actually watched Browns games, you wouldn't say Chubb does not pass the eye test. Because he's does every game. He has power, vision and deceptive long speed and even a studder step. And he can take it to the house. I don't see why Chubb can't be as good as the other backs on your list. He has all the tools. Only difference is he was drafted in the 2nd round while the others you mentions went earlier.

And let's not forget about Kareem Hunt who was on his way to being a top 5 back before he got suspended.

You are using hype and name recognition over real eye test + results on the field.
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Insinuating that I don't watch this stuff is cute.

Are you honestly telling me that Nick Chubb is as talented as Saquon Barkley, Alvin Kamara and David Johnson? Because, even before his knee injury at Georgia, he wasn't.

Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore. I was worried Chubb was damaged goods--someone who would never recover to that first round talent he was at Georgia before the injuries. But, damn did he recover well during the year. His speed came back, and he looks like a very good runner. Chubb can be one of the most productive runners in this league, especially if this offense comes on the way I expect it to with Baker, an offensive line, and disgusting weapons. But, Chubb won't ever be in that elite upper echelon of backs. He just doesn't possess the talent to do so.

Kareem Hunt has never been "on his way to being a top 5 back." The guy is way closer to an average back who was in a really good system than he is to a "top 5 back."

I think you're using homerism and stats to project talent onto players.

It feels really weird being in this position. I think Chubb's a great back. He just isn't elite--and that's okay. You don't need an elite RB to win in the NFL. Not being elite doesn't mean you can't be a very good starter, or in the top half of the league. Melvin Gordon's not an elite back and he's definitely a top 10 RB in the NFL and the Chargers love him. He's crazy productive for them.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore.
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Lol, c’mon man, really? Let’s take the first 6 weeks of the year. After doing minimal research, it’s clear Chubb was given 16 carries. Never more than 3 in any game. And over those 16 carries, he rushed for 173 yards and 2 TDs. That’s 10.8 yards per carry.

And before you go saying that number is cute or meaningless, take a look at Carlos Hyde’s 114 carries for 382 yards over the same 6 weeks (3.35 YPC).

But you’re right, the only difference between them was the numbers they wore. Keep levitating above the rest of us and our shit takes.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Insinuating that I don't watch this stuff is cute.

Are you honestly telling me that Nick Chubb is as talented as Saquon Barkley, Alvin Kamara and David Johnson? Because, even before his knee injury at Georgia, he wasn't.

Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore. I was worried Chubb was damaged goods--someone who would never recover to that first round talent he was at Georgia before the injuries. But, damn did he recover well during the year. His speed came back, and he looks like a very good runner. Chubb can be one of the most productive runners in this league, especially if this offense comes on the way I expect it to with Baker, an offensive line, and disgusting weapons. But, Chubb won't ever be in that elite upper echelon of backs. He just doesn't possess the talent to do so.

Kareem Hunt has never been "on his way to being a top 5 back." The guy is way closer to an average back who was in a really good system than he is to a "top 5 back."

I think you're using homerism and stats to project talent onto players.

It feels really weird being in this position. I think Chubb's a great back. He just isn't elite--and that's okay. You don't need an elite RB to win in the NFL. Not being elite doesn't mean you can't be a very good starter, or in the top half of the league. Melvin Gordon's not an elite back and he's definitely a top 10 RB in the NFL and the Chargers love him. He's crazy productive for them.
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There’s nothing behind 90%+ of what you’ve posted here, which makes it awesome.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore. I was worried Chubb was damaged goods--someone who would never recover to that first round talent he was at Georgia before the injuries. But, damn did he recover well during the year. His speed came back, and he looks like a very good runner. Chubb can be one of the most productive runners in this league, especially if this offense comes on the way I expect it to with Baker, an offensive line, and disgusting weapons. But, Chubb won't ever be in that elite upper echelon of backs. He just doesn't possess the talent to do so.
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This is the paragraph that truly has people questioning how much you really watched them both play. There is a clear reason why Dorsey dumped Hyde this season. It was because he was being outplayed pretty significantly. But, the two clowns that were in charge at the time were as oblivious to it as you seem to have been. Of course that lack of simple football acumen is what lead to them following Hyde out the door.
 
CavsSimmy said:
This whole "YOU MATTER" thing is totally going to be our war-cry under Freddie and I am absolutely here for it.

I think what's most exciting is that we are not only are in the process of assembling a powerhouse of a roster, but the guys that sit in the most important chairs ooze with charisma, leadership and influence. Even as a fan, I want to be lead by a coach like Freddie. I want to be motivated by a player like Jarvis. I want to be inspired to play for a QB like Baker. I want these guys to represent me as a Cleveland Browns fan. That's the kind of thing you can't measure with raw statistics; it's intangible, but if it has that same impact on the players (and I'm guessing/hoping it will), it can often be the difference between a talented team bound for the Super Bowl and a talented team bound for perennial dysfunction.

This organization finally feels like it is doing everything right. Every piece is in place and they're all starting to fit together perfectly. Accumulating talent is only one part of the team-building process but being able to get guys - winners - in a position to lead, motivate, and inspire? For me, that's almost the most exciting part of this entire off-season.
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It is pretty cool you started out as just a cavs fan and became a Browns fan literally a world away from Cleveland without any success from the team in the lifespan of this forum. Kudos!
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Insinuating that I don't watch this stuff is cute.

Are you honestly telling me that Nick Chubb is as talented as Saquon Barkley, Alvin Kamara and David Johnson? Because, even before his knee injury at Georgia, he wasn't.

Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore. I was worried Chubb was damaged goods--someone who would never recover to that first round talent he was at Georgia before the injuries. But, damn did he recover well during the year. His speed came back, and he looks like a very good runner. Chubb can be one of the most productive runners in this league, especially if this offense comes on the way I expect it to with Baker, an offensive line, and disgusting weapons. But, Chubb won't ever be in that elite upper echelon of backs. He just doesn't possess the talent to do so.

Kareem Hunt has never been "on his way to being a top 5 back." The guy is way closer to an average back who was in a really good system than he is to a "top 5 back."

I think you're using homerism and stats to project talent onto players.

It feels really weird being in this position. I think Chubb's a great back. He just isn't elite--and that's okay. You don't need an elite RB to win in the NFL. Not being elite doesn't mean you can't be a very good starter, or in the top half of the league. Melvin Gordon's not an elite back and he's definitely a top 10 RB in the NFL and the Chargers love him. He's crazy productive for them.
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In terms of Chubb’s place on that list, it really depends on what we’re evaluating.

If it’s including receiving skills, absolutely he’s below Kamara, Bell, DJ, Gurley, CMC, and Saquon. It’s not that he can’t do it, but he wasn’t asked to do it at Georgia.

That said, he acclimated to it much faster than I’d have imagined as a rookie—including that back-shoulder TD showing his ability to adjust to a ball in the air in Cincinnati—but he’s not on their level. He doesn’t run the route trees that these guys do. He likely never will be because he’s a different style back.

Now, as a runner—he’s absolutely with these guys and there’s an argument to be made that he’s near the top of the list. We’re not going to look at YPC because I agree that is a poor stat based on line play and other factors.

In addition to leading the league in yards after contact, he’s also top ten in:

Juke Rate - 30.2%
Evaded Tackles - 4.0 p/g
Big Runs - 14
Big Run Rate - 7.3%
Yards Created - 388 yards (24 p/g)
Yards Created/Carry - 1.83 yards/carry

I also think this clearly matches the eye test as a runner. He has quick acceleration and change of direction for a big back. He puts a foot in the ground, and can make you look foolish. He then has the burst to split safeties.

Having the ability to churn his legs for tough yards as a big back and also having the burst and quickness to run away from DB’s in space is not extremely common. Chubb is special. Those tools are special.

When you include his vision, it’s clear that he’s a top 10 back in the NFL as a pure runner.

As a pass catcher, he’s still a work in progress.
 
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There's also the part where Alvin Kamara is literal fucking lightning personified.

I honestly don't think there's a more entertaining player in the NFL than Kamara. Him in that offense is just so fucking good.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Insinuating that I don't watch this stuff is cute.

Are you honestly telling me that Nick Chubb is as talented as Saquon Barkley, Alvin Kamara and David Johnson? Because, even before his knee injury at Georgia, he wasn't.

Chubb looked untalented early on this year--the only difference between him and Carlos Hyde were the numbers they wore. I was worried Chubb was damaged goods--someone who would never recover to that first round talent he was at Georgia before the injuries. But, damn did he recover well during the year. His speed came back, and he looks like a very good runner. Chubb can be one of the most productive runners in this league, especially if this offense comes on the way I expect it to with Baker, an offensive line, and disgusting weapons. But, Chubb won't ever be in that elite upper echelon of backs. He just doesn't possess the talent to do so.

Kareem Hunt has never been "on his way to being a top 5 back." The guy is way closer to an average back who was in a really good system than he is to a "top 5 back."

I think you're using homerism and stats to project talent onto players.

It feels really weird being in this position. I think Chubb's a great back. He just isn't elite--and that's okay. You don't need an elite RB to win in the NFL. Not being elite doesn't mean you can't be a very good starter, or in the top half of the league. Melvin Gordon's not an elite back and he's definitely a top 10 RB in the NFL and the Chargers love him. He's crazy productive for them.
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I think the fallacy of your position is that you are only looking at it through one kind of lens. Kamara and Barkley and Johnson and Gurley are huge names that people dash for in fantasy football leagues because they have the status. That's fine - Chubb isn't considered ~elite~ since he only has half a season's worth of production at this point. I think most here are okay with that - he has to have a steady line of production to be put in that tier.

Where I disagree is how you insinuate that Chubb won't reach that tier because he doesn't have the talent to do so. I think you're associating talent with hype + fanciness. Chubb isn't the fancy kind of player like Kamara or Barkley.

Chubb's biggest talents are his vision, and ability to maintain his velocity while changing direction ALL WHILE being a powerful back that is hard to tackle. Rarely did you see him get leveled by a guy directly in front of him - his shiftiness doesn't allow guys to get in good hits. He FORCES dudes to go for arm tackles. He's not Duke-shifty, but he's surprisingly agile for his body physique. That unique combination of power, speed, and vision makes him frighteningly explosive. He's a powerful downhill runner. He has shown patience and understanding of gaps along with great instincts as a rookie. He protects the ball extremely well (some of those big names are fumble machines).

That's talent for sure. Not the same kind as others, but still meaningful and rare talent. He's not regarded as being the pass-catcher some of those names are but neither was Ezekiel Elliot until this past year. You give these guys targets and watch the numbers go up. And as a pure runner, I'd honestly take him over a few of those big names.
 
The Oi said:
Out of the Rafters getting absolutely shoved into a locker in here.
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Swimming upstream is difficult. I've said my peace. Chubb is very good, but saying he's an elite back is silly. Homerism makes people silly. Writing off players with absolutely special abilities like Kamara and Saquon as "fantasy football hype" is definitely when it's time to abandon thread.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Swimming upstream is difficult. I've said my peace. Chubb is very good, but saying he's an elite back is silly. Homerism makes people silly. Writing off players with absolutely special abilities like Kamara and Saquon as "fantasy football hype" is definitely when it's time to abandon thread.
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I don’t really see people writing those guys off. I don’t even really see people saying Chubb is as good as them right now.

I just think people feel you’re underestimating him significantly. And you’re getting spanked for it.
 
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