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Delonte Arrested? (Windy article p. 31)

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Lee said:
You dont punish some one extra because they have diabeties, why would you punish Delonte extra because he has a mental desease. It is the exact same in concept. You state you have been around this stuff all your life, but its clear to me you dont understand how to deal with with mental desease even with your "experience". Suspending him extra will just enforce his dilusional belief everyone is out to get him. Forcing him to get more help and take his meds is a different story.

Delonte needs help, not "tough love" from someone who wants to punish someone extra for having a desease. The law and the league should treat him the exact same as anyone else in the ecact same situation. Periosd.
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Why is it extra punsihment? It is still well below what the law could punish for someone who broke more than a handful of laws. It has not one thing to do with people being out to get him, but enforcing accountability for poor judgement/actions. Again, just like Pluto and BW have touched upon, there is good reason that guys with mental instability should not be carrying around weapons.

And just an FYI, my experience with these type of situations includes an eerily similar event of the combination of mental instability and firearm possesion in association with paranoid bouts. I will say again, this can be one of the scariest situations imagineable. All you people who say this is no big deal and should be dealt with the exact same way as any other person in the exact same situation do not understand it has to be handled differently. The circumstances involved, including diagnosed mental instability combined with lots of money(means) and firearms is terribly volatile.

Why in the world anyone would think you handle this the exact same as any other situation only tells me these people have no past association with anything to do with firearms and mental illness. BTW, a few weeks in a local jail and a couple weeks of game time suspension is nothing, NOTHING, compared to how this could be handled for a "normal" person. There are numerous professions, including a bunch I am positive would delve into RCF members livelihoods, that would fire an employee for such an arrest.
 
LJ4MVP said:
or perhaps have those in charge consult with the medical experts to make the decision instead of just guessing with someones life. I kind of doubt that the experts would recommend that you give someone extra punishment because they have a disease.
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Again, being a fan seems to cloud people's perspective. There is no "extra" anything here. By law, Delonte's punishment, or any man's in a simliar situation, could be much more severe. MOF, I'm pretty sure we could fill pages of cases similar to this that all see a more extensive punsihment than a f'in probation and 3 game suspension that many around here suggest.
 
rabman_gold said:
It's called a fucking "disorder", not a "desease" (or disease"). Period. Please get it right.
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Bad spelling asside, I called it a disease to make sure people understand this is an illness and should be treated medically not with tough love....but I do get your point and knew it from the begining....its semantics....but coming from me, someone who loves to debate simantics, its important to note.

Its an illness that should be treated medically just like drug dependancy is an illness....unfortunely both are quite often misunderstood and mistreated.
 
SmknJoe7 said:
Why is it extra punsihment? It is still well below what the law could punish for someone who broke more than a handful of laws. It has not one thing to do with people being out to get him, but enforcing accountability for poor judgement/actions. Again, just like Pluto and BW have touched upon, there is good reason that guys with mental instability should not be carrying around weapons.

And just an FYI, my experience with these type of situations includes an eerily similar event of the combination of mental instability and firearm possesion in association with paranoid bouts. I will say again, this can be one of the scariest situations imagineable. All you people who say this is no big deal and should be dealt with the exact same way as any other person in the exact same situation do not understand it has to be handled differently. The circumstances involved, including diagnosed mental instability combined with lots of money(means) and firearms is terribly volatile.

Why in the world anyone would think you handle this the exact same as any other situation only tells me these people have no past association with anything to do with firearms and mental illness. BTW, a few weeks in a local jail and a couple weeks of game time suspension is nothing, NOTHING, compared to how this could be handled for a "normal" person. There are numerous professions, including a bunch I am positive would delve into RCF members livelihoods, that would fire an employee for such an arrest.
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Letter of the law and what presidence has been set are 2 different things, and understanding that is important. The league could suspend him for the entire year, but how is that fair. Mental illness should not be factored into the punishment as far as jail time or suspension...why would it. Its not illegal to be mentally ill. He needs help, not extra punishment. I never said it was no big deal, and yes i agree its a thin line allowing people with mental illness to carry weapons, but from a legal standpoint but you just cant differ. You have to allow it until the break a law or are commited because its against this little document called the constitution. Its not illegal to have a mental illness, thus the law cant treat it any differnt...its called prejidice and it has gotten whole cases thrown out of court before.
 
Lee said:
Letter of the law and what presidence has been set are 2 different things, and understanding that is important. The league could suspend him for the entire year, but how is that fair. Mental illness should not be factored into the punishment as far as jail time or suspension...why would it. Its not illegal to be mentally ill. He needs help, not extra punishment. I never said it was no big deal, and yes i agree its a thin line allowing people with mental illness to carry weapons, but from a legal standpoint but you just cant differ. You have to allow it until the break a law or are commited because its against this little document called the constitution. Its not illegal to have a mental illness, thus the law cant treat it any differnt...its called prejidice and it has gotten whole cases thrown out of court before.
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Look at your state's CCW application. There will most undoubtedly be an entire section devoted to mental illness. Of course it's not illegal to have mental illness, but there is a reason it will prevent you from carrying a fireram legally, a very good reason at that.

I also never came anywhere near to saying the kid should be suspended for a year. That would be cruel and unusual in any context. To me, everything in the case has to be factored as a whole. Where is the league presidence for a situation like this? There just isn't one. There are no cases of a guy with a diagnosed mental illness illegally carrying 2 unlicensed, concealed, loaded handguns on a trike while speeding and cutting off a K-9 cruiser, whilst legally carrying a concealed shotgun in a guitar case strapped to his back.

The fact is pretty simple. In order for Delonte to legally carry those firearms the way he was he would need to apply for a CCW permit and commit to a state mandated course of supervised classroom and field training to finally obtain one. His diagnosed mental condition very specifically eliminates him from the ability to do so. It's not prejudiced at all. It's the law and it is there for a very good reason.

Delonte publicly offered up his decision to enter a treatment program for his illness and to follow a prescribed routine of medication to help treat his illness. By the very laws you mention, it must be treated differently than the same cases with "mentally stable" individuals. No legal defense in the world could argue otherwise. This isn't about constitutional rights, it's about protecting guys like Delonte and the people around him. The illness is such that there is no predicting when an outbreak of paranoia/dillusion will occur, so it must simply be that in avoiding such a situation like the one he recently occurred can be completely avoided he can never legally possess a firearm.

I really don't see the whole "fine line to walk" argument here. There are no fine lines. The man simply cannot legally carry a firearm. I'm honestly surprised they let the shotti go so easily. They also said the moving violations have already been dropped. Seems to me he's already getting more than fair treatment here(which, so far, I am in no way opposed to).
 
Pretty good debate going on back and forth here between Joe and Lee.
Me likey...
 
*THE ORIGINAL* said:
Pretty good debate going on back and forth here between Joe and Lee.
Me likey...
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Hey, I think Lee is the man. I always read his posts and more than a fair majority of the time I totally agree with the man. But, to me, life experiences shape our opinions, some stronger than others, and this is one I feel more strongly about than just about any. The entire truth of what actually was going on in Delonte's head will most likely never become public, so it will lead to a certain amount of specualtion on both ends of the spectrum. But, to me, the bottom line of combining mental instability and firerams will never change and I think that's what this boils down to.

I love Delonte like only a few other athletes in CLE history before him. I hope people don't see me as some type of hater on this. I truely believe my stance is for the betterment of the kid long term, as a Cav and as a person. Obviously, my stance plays ZERO in what will actually happen, and more than likely his punishments will not be as severe as what I'm suggesting. I just hope that no matter what discipline is invoked, it ends up helping Delonte progress to the point of never having to be in any type of situation like this again.
 
Lee sometimes manage to throw a debate into an entirely different vortex than he'd originally intended solely by spelling a word incorrectly or using homonyms.

I love it.
 
SmknJoe7 said:
Look at your state's CCW application. There will most undoubtedly be an entire section devoted to mental illness. Of course it's not illegal to have mental illness, but there is a reason it will prevent you from carrying a fireram legally, a very good reason at that.

I also never came anywhere near to saying the kid should be suspended for a year. That would be cruel and unusual in any context. To me, everything in the case has to be factored as a whole. Where is the league presidence for a situation like this? There just isn't one. There are no cases of a guy with a diagnosed mental illness illegally carrying 2 unlicensed, concealed, loaded handguns on a trike while speeding and cutting off a K-9 cruiser, whilst legally carrying a concealed shotgun in a guitar case strapped to his back.

The fact is pretty simple. In order for Delonte to legally carry those firearms the way he was he would need to apply for a CCW permit and commit to a state mandated course of supervised classroom and field training to finally obtain one. His diagnosed mental condition very specifically eliminates him from the ability to do so. It's not prejudiced at all. It's the law and it is there for a very good reason.

Delonte publicly offered up his decision to enter a treatment program for his illness and to follow a prescribed routine of medication to help treat his illness. By the very laws you mention, it must be treated differently than the same cases with "mentally stable" individuals. No legal defense in the world could argue otherwise. This isn't about constitutional rights, it's about protecting guys like Delonte and the people around him. The illness is such that there is no predicting when an outbreak of paranoia/dillusion will occur, so it must simply be that in avoiding such a situation like the one he recently occurred can be completely avoided he can never legally possess a firearm.

I really don't see the whole "fine line to walk" argument here. There are no fine lines. The man simply cannot legally carry a firearm. I'm honestly surprised they let the shotti go so easily. They also said the moving violations have already been dropped. Seems to me he's already getting more than fair treatment here(which, so far, I am in no way opposed to).
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Ok, I looked up the laws specifically in maryland since that is the only state that matters right now. You dont have to register a weapon in maryland, but it is almost impossible to get a concealled weapon permit. Now, Delonte did have 2 concealed weapons, that is important to note is illegal in Maryland. As far as his mental state, there is a background check to purchase a firearm in Maryland. This is where the "mental disorder" could come into play. Most states do have laws preventing gun ownership. But lets deal with Maryland specifically since that is where he was found. I looked up the law...so now I am playing dime store lawyer, bute here it is.

1. Fugitive from justice; 2. Convicted felon; convicted of crime of violence; 3. Habitual drunkard; 4. Addict/habitual user of narcotics/amphetamines/barbiturates; 5. If spent more than 30 consecutive days in mental institution for treatment; 6. Under 21 yrs.

Read more: http://law.jrank.org/pages/11807/Gun-Control.html#ixzz0S2MxvEM0
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The most notable is the mental institution treatment. He has not be treated inpatient for 30 days...thus its legal for him to own a weapon in maryland...and maryland does not require it to be registered.

I will agree that some states would outlaw him woning a gun based upon his bipolar diagnosis, but maryland is not one of them. Further, the pshyiciatric community is split on this issue. Many feel this would further implant negative stigmintation for those with mental illness while others believe the common good is more improtant.

This is a tough issue, because if the proffessionals cant agree, who can we? One thing for sure is that it wasnt illegal for delonte to won a weapon, but it was a misdemeanor for him to conceal the weapons.
 
SmknJoe7 said:
Hey, I think Lee is the man. I always read his posts and more than a fair majority of the time I totally agree with the man. But, to me, life experiences shape our opinions, some stronger than others, and this is one I feel more strongly about than just about any. The entire truth of what actually was going on in Delonte's head will most likely never become public, so it will lead to a certain amount of specualtion on both ends of the spectrum. But, to me, the bottom line of combining mental instability and firerams will never change and I think that's what this boils down to.

I love Delonte like only a few other athletes in CLE history before him. I hope people don't see me as some type of hater on this. I truely believe my stance is for the betterment of the kid long term, as a Cav and as a person. Obviously, my stance plays ZERO in what will actually happen, and more than likely his punishments will not be as severe as what I'm suggesting. I just hope that no matter what discipline is invoked, it ends up helping Delonte progress to the point of never having to be in any type of situation like this again.
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Understand I love a good debate and probably missed my calling by not going to law school like my brother did. This is actually a fairly contreversial subject and my opinion has been changed but I am still keeping with my original debate about it not being illegal for Delonte to own a weapon because i have uncovered the proof to my point.

I often debate points just for the sake of being right, and in this case I am right. Now, do you want to start a debate on if a person with bipolar should be allowed to own a handgun is a completely different debate...one that i am now leaning more towards no they shouldnt.

The problem becomes though where is the line drawn and what defines a diagnosed mental illness. Marylands currnet 30 day institutional law doesnt seem to be strict enough, but not sure i want to take rights away from every person being treated by a psychiatrist either. Thus where the fine line comes in.

I hope I dont waste peoples time with my rants, maybe we should start a section called OfF topic rants and debates that only Lee and a select few others enjoy. It has been fun depating you Joe, and you have made many valid points, but in the end, Maryland just doesnt say its illegal for someone with bipolar to own a gun.
 
Lee said:
Ok, I looked up the laws specifically in maryland since that is the only state that matters right now. You dont have to register a weapon in maryland, but it is almost impossible to get a concealled weapon permit. Now, Delonte did have 2 concealed weapons, that is important to note is illegal in Maryland. As far as his mental state, there is a background check to purchase a firearm in Maryland. This is where the "mental disorder" could come into play. Most states do have laws preventing gun ownership. But lets deal with Maryland specifically since that is where he was found. I looked up the law...so now I am playing dime store lawyer, bute here it is.



The most notable is the mental institution treatment. He has not be treated inpatient for 30 days...thus its legal for him to own a weapon in maryland...and maryland does not require it to be registered.

I will agree that some states would outlaw him woning a gun based upon his bipolar diagnosis, but maryland is not one of them. Further, the pshyiciatric community is split on this issue. Many feel this would further implant negative stigmintation for those with mental illness while others believe the common good is more improtant.

This is a tough issue, because if the proffessionals cant agree, who can we? One thing for sure is that it wasnt illegal for delonte to won a weapon, but it was a misdemeanor for him to conceal the weapons.
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Yeah, I posted the very same stipulations earlier in this thread, but one thing to note is that the application itself does not ask for any specific time frame. I also cannot state for fact wether or not Delonte has ever been in a mental institution for 30 days or more. And some of the laws on obtaining a CCW are left to the discretion of the review board....

PERMIT TO CARRY

Application for a permit to carry a handgun is made to the Secretary of State Police. The applicant should submit a notarized letter stating the reasons why he is applying for a permit, in addition to the printed application form. The permit may be issued if the Secretary finds that the applicant:

1. Is 18 years of age or older.
2. Has not been convicted of a felony or of a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.
3. Has not been committed within the previous 10 years to any juvenile detention center for longer than one year.
4. Is not an addict or alcoholic nor has ever been convicted of a narcotics offense.
5. Has not, based on the results of investigation, exhibited a propensity for violence or instability.
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It is unlawful for any person to sell or transfer a handgun to any person whom he knows or has reasonable cause to believe is prohibited from possessing a handgun (see "POSSESSION" above) or if the buyer or transferee is:

a. Of unsound mind
b. Visibility under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
c. Under 21.
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It seems to me they leave just enough of a grey area so as to veto any application on an individual basis, even if the initial application requirements may have been met.

You could very well have proven yourself here, but I can't say for sure, except for the licensing/registration issue. That number 5 I posted and bolded about instability seems to offer up a bit of a loophole for the secretary to deny the CCW permit. Seeing as how Delonte presumably never applied for a CCW, it seems it is still an unanswered question that will never have a definitive answer.

The problem becomes though where is the line drawn and what defines a diagnosed mental illness. Marylands currnet 30 day institutional law doesnt seem to be strict enough, but not sure i want to take rights away from every person being treated by a psychiatrist either. Thus where the fine line comes in.
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Completely agree here. No way every person being treated by a psychiatrist should be banned from owning a firearm. Simply being treated does not necessarily indicate a specific mental defect diagnosis being made. It would have to be more specific to a diagnosis of mental disorder, imo, like bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, multiple personality disorder, etc.
 
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Lee said:
The problem becomes though where is the line drawn and what defines a diagnosed mental illness. Marylands currnet 30 day institutional law doesnt seem to be strict enough, but not sure i want to take rights away from every person being treated by a psychiatrist either. Thus where the fine line comes in.
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My first thought was to maybe tie the restriction to medications, as a number of common bipolar meds aren't even safe enough to drive on. However, we really don't want to give anyone another reason not to take their meds. And of course if you can get busted for a DUI, there should probably be an equivalent law for carrying under those conditions.

Definitely a tricky subject, good discussion. I don't think you can legislate for every possibility, at some point you'd have to leave it up to the docs and the patient.

SmknJoe7 said:
No way every person being treated by a psychiatrist should be banned from owning a firearm. Simply being treated does not necessarily indicate a specific mental defect diagnosis being made. It would have to be more specific to a diagnosis of mental disorder, imo, like bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, multiple personality disorder, etc.
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And the issue there is that there is some evidence that many psychiatrists are guilty of pigeon-holing patients and making quick and dirty diagnoses. I'm not sure the field is mature enough yet to say this person is unsafely bi-polar vs having a seasonal disorder, for instance.
 
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SmknJoe7 said:
Again, being a fan seems to cloud people's perspective. There is no "extra" anything here. By law, Delonte's punishment, or any man's in a simliar situation, could be much more severe. MOF, I'm pretty sure we could fill pages of cases similar to this that all see a more extensive punsihment than a f'in probation and 3 game suspension that many around here suggest.
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it's extra because precedent says no jail time and a 3 to 7 game suspension, and you suggested jail time and a 10-15 game suspension because you think it might "do him good".

You don't punish someone extra because they have a disease.
 
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