2012 Draft

[Kouki]

Completely useless bit of information - Cleveland was second in viewership or something for the draft last night.

NBA Draft ratings down 8% | HOOPSWORLD | Basketball News & NBA Rumors

 

[catfish]

Haha, it's more amusing that Grant followed Hollinger 2 years in a row.

1. get gm job
2. subscribe to espn insider
3. wait for Holinger Draft Rater to come out
4. draft accordingly
5. hope

The above is why I stated in another post that for next year I am not going to bother following the draft until the draft rater comes out. The rest is noise.

 

[tsteele316]

No, I think you missed my point. I'm not comparing apples to apples or any other produce. I'm comparing the value of selecting Dion Waiters to the value of selecting Thomas Robinson.

Waiters could've... whatever. He didn't. Thomas Robinson stayed and got better -- progressed to the point of being one of the two best players in college basketball last season, actually. That he was able to accomplish that has nothing to do with Waiters. And if Waiters had decided to stay and became one of the two best players in college basketball next season, I wouldn't have the reservations I have now.

no, you're trying to compare current values in a vacuum and not future values. since that might not register, here's a great metaphor. you wanted to take $10 today. The Cavs instead took $7 today with the chance of getting up to $20 in the future.

 

[czvo]

This might put me on some ignore lists as a melter, and I've tried to stay positive, but just going to type some shit out and then let it go:

Davis, MKG, Beal, Waiters, Robinson. One of those names is not like the others.
Irving, Williams, Kanter, Thompson, Valanciunas. One of those names is not like the others, too (in terms of projections at the time).

I get it. GMs like Grant know more than I do. It fucking goes without saying. Nevertheless...

I'm finding it almost impossible to convince myself that Robinson will not be a better player in the league than Waiters, period. I think Robinson was the clear-cut BPA at #4. And, to me, there's no two ways about it; you take the BPA, period.

Well... Maybe the Cavs had them in the same tier and the tie-breaker was need? Bullshit. You gots to have an opinion. At the top of the draft, on a rebuilding team with almost no long term pieces, save one sure thing at PG, you draft THE BPA. And Robinson was that.

Well... Maybe the Cavs just rated Waiters higher than Robinson? Then they're idiots. That's going way too far, I know, but I'm just fired up right now and it's finally bubbling over. Davis is a cut above, then, to me, there were 3 players after him a lesser cut above everybody else: MKG, Beal, and Robinson. They all have better mixes of upside and safety than everybody else. Again, to me. But I don't think I was alone there.

I just think Grant loves to get cute. Cute works sometimes. But not all the damn time. In fact, cuteness is my perpetual downfall in every single fantasy sports draft I ever take part in, as I try to outsmart everyone else and show off my balls. Did I just compare Grant's drafting and my own in fantasy sports? Yes. So what?

Robinson and Kyrie seem like the preeminent pick 'n roll partners in the league for the next decade. Stockton and Malone reincarnated but without Jordan constantly in their way.

Robinson then a move up for a wing? Add in the rest of the picks to offer to GS along with Andy and add Barnes (unlikely) or to Houston for Lamb (unlikely) or just stay where we were at and grab a wing at the end of the round (likely)? I'd prefer any of those, given that it would still mean we got the best available player at 4.

Would we have taken Robinson at 4 if we didn't have Tristan? I'll never know the answer to that, but if it's yes, it's a huge mistake. If Tristan is good, he'll help us win regardless. If it's a logjam, there's always a market for young athletic and effective bigs; trade him and the rebuild is still on. If he's a bench player in a couple years, we're happy we took Robinson.

Outsmarting the field in taking an under the radar sixth man that teams were reportedly hoping would slide was cute. Outsmarting the field in taking a high energy big last year that teams were hoping would slide was cute. Outsmarting the field in selecting a guy from the Congo that had only recently heard of the sport of basketball in the first round was cute (Grant's involvement, whether it was for a Toronto trade, and the impact of the move given the draft slot is arguable, but it fits my argument so I'm listing it). Outsmarting the field in taking the young high upside super sub tweener instead of the safe PG, when his team (the Hawks) needed a PG was cute. I hope the fucking cuteness pays off this time.

Its funny, I've seen almost every KU game the last few years, and last year, Malone was the one name I couldn't get out of my head whenever I saw Robinson. They're essentially the same size (Malone listed at 6-9, 250; T-Rob measured in at 6-8.75, 244). Now, I may not have gotten to see Malone when he was really, truly in his prime, but I do remember Malone vividly from his days playing against Jordan in the finals (and after that).

He didn't have that picture perfect post game, but he was great at using his strength to get in excellent position to score without having to make McHale-type moves. Watching Robinson this year, what stood out was his ability to do the exact same thing. And to piggy back off of what narbar said, the Cavs have Kyrie. He's a better scorer than Stockton, but him and T-Rob running the PnR could have been truly deadly.

In watching Waiters, I can't help but think the Cavs just took Marcus Thornton. A good player, but one much better suited for the 6th man role. I just find it hard to believe the Cavs truly had Waiters ahead of T-Rob on their draft board, and (as I said in the other thread) if they did, it really doesn't make me feel much better.

I hope Waiters works out, but my gut feeling is the team made a mistake. I'm willing to change my opinion though, and of course I will be rooting for this to work out.

 

[AustinCarr]

Can we all just take a moment to agree that it's better to be a Cavs fan than live in Brooklyn right now?

They traded the #6 pick for Gerald Wallace, who just opted out of his contract. They absolutely gave that pick away for 16 meaningless games in what appeared to be a tank season. A season that tanked to make the Portland pick higher.

:thisguy:

That team could be in danger of being Bobcats level bad if they cant keep Lopez and Humphries as well as losing Wallace and Williams.

 

[czvo]

no, you're trying to compare current values in a vacuum and not future values. since that might not register, here's a great metaphor. you wanted to take $10 today. The Cavs instead took $7 today with the chance of getting up to $20 in the future.

Except you're assuming Robinson has no chance of getting better and is what he is. That's a terrible metaphor.

 

[narbar32]

no, you're trying to compare current values in a vacuum and not future values. since that might not register, here's a great metaphor. you wanted to take $10 today. The Cavs instead took $7 today with the chance of getting up to $20 in the future.

What is with the seemingly ramped up condescension in here? It makes it difficult to discuss things without being a dick in turn. So I guess I'll just stop trying.

Your "great metaphor," if you do say so yourself, is both unnecessary and inapplicable. This is no fucking closer to money than it is to fruit. It's not a lack of understanding. It's not that I'm a brain-dead idiot who's never watched basketball. And I certainly don't need these fucking ridiculous analogies spoon fed to me to comprehend how Grant and co. came to their decision.

Robinson (D.O.B. 3/18/91) is less than a year older than Waiters (D.O.B. 12/1/91). I don't simply myopically think that Robinson is better now. I think he will be better for their careers. Again, I simply think Robinson is and will be the better player. I'm not alone in that thought. I could be wrong and I hope I am.

Jesus... I don't even dislike Waiters as a prospect and I'm excited to see him play for the Cavs. I just think we passed on the better prospect for need. At worst, I disagree with the Cavs' rankings. That's it. No fruit. No analogies.

 

[czvo]

I think you completely missed the point. If you were to compare apples to apples as to players situations after their sophomore year, Waiters and Robinson had pretty similar situations going on. They were unfortunately stuck behind upperclassmen, despite being the superior talent.

Robinson didn't get better, he got a better opportunity. The same exact thing could be said about Waiters had he stayed for his junior year, like Robinson did.

This draft reminds me a lot of when the Browns picked Haden. Everyone wanted Eric Berry, we missed out, we seemed to draft a guy too high, the fans moaned and groaned and called it a horrible pick because he "ran a slow combine time." Time passes, then 2 years in to his career, he is arguably one of the most beloved players on the roster, and one of the most talented to boot.

That's, for lack of a better term, bullshit.

I saw the kid play for three years. The improvement alone from his sophomore year to his junior year was astounding. He was a completely different player.

 

[Rondo]

Its funny, I've seen almost every KU game the last few years, and last year, Malone was the one name I couldn't get out of my head whenever I saw Robinson. They're essentially the same size (Malone listed at 6-9, 250; T-Rob measured in at 6-8.75, 244). Now, I may not have gotten to see Malone when he was really, truly in his prime, but I do remember Malone vividly from his days playing against Jordan in the finals (and after that).

He didn't have that picture perfect post game, but he was great at using his strength to get in excellent position to score without having to make McHale-type moves. Watching Robinson this year, what stood out was his ability to do the exact same thing. And to piggy back off of what narbar said, the Cavs have Kyrie. He's a better scorer than Stockton, but him and T-Rob running the PnR could have been truly deadly.

In watching Waiters, I can't help but think the Cavs just took Marcus Thornton. A good player, but one much better suited for the 6th man role. I just find it hard to believe the Cavs truly had Waiters ahead of T-Rob on their draft board, and (as I said in the other thread) if they did, it really doesn't make me feel much better.

I hope Waiters works out, but my gut feeling is the team made a mistake. I'm willing to change my opinion though, and of course I will be rooting for this to work out.

You can make comparisons of TRob to Malone all day and say you think Waiters is Thorton 2.0, but the fact is when Byron Scott watched Waiters play he specifically said the first name that popped in his mind was D Wade. Now, Byron Scott was a 2 guard in the NBA playing with Magic Johnson. We have an extremely gifted point guard and Scott just picked our 2 guard to play along side him. If I had to put my trust in anyone's opinion, it would be the guy that knows that position and played it in the NBA along side a bonafide point guard in Magic. But then again it could have just been a cute pick.

 

[tsteele316]

What is with the seemingly ramped up condescension in here? It makes it difficult to discuss things without being a dick in turn. So I guess I'll just stop trying.

Your "great metaphor," if you do say so yourself, is both unnecessary and inapplicable. This is no fucking closer to money than it is to fruit. It's not a lack of understanding. It's not that I'm a brain-dead idiot who's never watched basketball. And I certainly don't need these fucking ridiculous analogies spoon fed to me to comprehend how Grant and co. came to their decision.

Robinson (D.O.B. 3/18/91) is less than a year older than Waiters (D.O.B. 12/1/91). I don't simply myopically think that Robinson is better now. I think he will be better for their careers. Again, I simply think Robinson is and will be the better player. I'm not alone in that thought. I could be wrong and I hope I am.

Jesus... I don't even dislike Waiters as a prospect and I'm excited to see him play for the Cavs. I just think we passed on the better prospect for need. At worst, I disagree with the Cavs' rankings. That's it. No fruit. No analogies.

you're bitching about being condescending after writing a manifesto claiming that trob would have been stockton/malone 2.0 in cleveland and if the cavs had waiters higher on their board then they're "simply idiots"? my GPS didn't tell me condescension was a one way street.

 

[narbar32]

you're bitching about being condescending after writing a manifesto claiming that trob would have been stockton/malone 2.0 in cleveland and if the cavs had waiters higher on their board then they're "simply idiots"? my GPS didn't tell me condescension was a one way street.

Then said immediately afterwards that I know that's taking it too far. I certainly don't expect any of the members of the Cavs' FO to be in here to take offense. If Grant is in here, however, I apologize for attacking you. I hope you make me eat crow and then give me front row seats to show me how wrong I am in person.

Edit: I think maybe I am being hypocritical. I'll leave this message as is for the sake of posterity, but I'll tone it back down. I don't want to come off as a dick, especially one trying to piss longer and stronger than any others. I'm sorry and no hard feelings, I hope.

 

[Rich]

DIdnt they use that line last year with Tristan? How many times can you use that line?

Yea, we could have taken that one guy who still hasn't made it across the pond, and won't be getting here this year at all.

 

[PosterTime]

Chad Ford graded us an A-. Not bad!

CLEVELAND CAVALIERS | GRADE: A-
Round 1: Dion Waiters (4), Tyler Zeller (17, from Mavs)

Round 2: None

Analysis: For the second straight year, the Cavs took a player at No. 4 who was ranked in the late teens on our Big Board in May. Like Tristan Thompson last year, Waiters had a meteoric rise the last month of the season. Unlike Thompson, his rise happened without ever doing a workout or interview with the Cavs. The Suns shut down Waiters early in the draft process, but it only seemed to start a Waiters feeding frenzy for teams ahead of them.

Waiters is the most dynamic scorer in the draft -- his ability to get to the basket is truly special -- and a handful of GMs felt that after Davis, MKG and Beal, he was the guy in this draft with the most star potential. He has NBA skill and, together with Kyrie Irving, should create a dynamic backcourt in Cleveland. Some will say taking Waiters at No. 4 was a bold pick, but I think it was a smart one with both MKG and Beal off the board. People said the same thing a few years ago when the Thunder took both Russell Westbrook and James Harden higher than expected.

I'm more agnostic about the Zeller pick. He's not going to be a great NBA center, but he runs the floor well and can play right away. At No. 17, you can't really ask for more than that.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Like Rchfld will never admit that Tristan Thompson is already better than he thought the peak would be for him. Never admit it, but he is.

:chuckles:

 

[GaryBriggs]

i think it's funny that people think that the cavs base their analysis on hollinger's ratings.

the cavs are a data-centric team. hollingers ratings are like the duplo version of those metrics. i am sure there is some overlap, but it's not like the cavs are reading espn insider to get their data analysis.