• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Regrade the finalized trade

  • A+

    Votes: 20 8.0%
  • A

    Votes: 70 27.9%
  • B

    Votes: 74 29.5%
  • C

    Votes: 39 15.5%
  • D

    Votes: 18 7.2%
  • F

    Votes: 30 12.0%

  • Total voters
    251
I remember they were trying to trade back into the first round, and get MarShon Brooks, who ended up sucking. In the 2011 draft.

And Boston traded that pick to the Nets who selected him. The next pick after, Dallas traded that pick for Rudy fucking' Fernandez in a three-way swap.

Goodness, I wish the Cavs jumped in, traded for that pick hoping they'd get Brooks, then didn't when he was selected ahead.

Then they might have just drafted Jimmy Butler. Ugh..... Ugh... Ugh...

Sometimes it's better to strike out and get lucky. Butler and Irving in the back court, would be better than GS's Steph and Klay.


I think that haunts me the most. Remembering we were trying to get another late first round pick, and aiming for Brooks. That would have been extremely nauseating if we did, drafted him, and then missed on Butler.

I know Butler was the 30th pick, so it's hard to fault a team for missing on him, since a lot of teams did.

But why does it always feel like we're targeting the wrong guy? It'd been depressing if we drafted Brooks (the guy we reported liked a lot), and ended up being awful, over Butler that's a premier star in the league today.
 
Last edited:
Porter was my guy :(
Same. We needed an SF badd. Little did I know Grant had a hard on for Lebron.

Same here..

Liked Otto Porter and I'm not an NCAA guy.. but that was my pick.. #2 for me was Oladipo. I recall arguing about why I had Porter over Oladipo prior to the draft.
 
I remember they were trying to trade back into the first round, and get MarShon Brooks, who ended up sucking. In the 2011 draft.

And Boston traded that pick to the Nets who selected him. The next pick after, Dallas traded that pick for Rudy fucking' Fernandez in a three-way swap.

Goodness, I wish the Cavs jumped in, traded for that pick hoping they'd get Brooks, then didn't when he was selected ahead.

Then they might have just drafted Jimmy Butler. Ugh..... Ugh... Ugh...

Sometimes it's better to strike out and get lucky. Butler and Irving in the back court, would be better than GS's Steph and Klay.


I think that haunts me the most. Remembering we were trying to get another late first round pick, and aiming for Brooks. That would have been extremely nauseating if we did, drafted him, and then missed on Butler.

I know Butler was the 30th pick, so it's hard to fault a team for missing on him, since a lot of teams did.

But why does it always feel like we're targeting the wrong guy? It'd been depressing if we drafted Brooks (the guy we reported liked a lot), and ended up being awful, over Butler that's a premier star in the league today.
Hmmm... I was always under the impression that the Cavs really wanted to trade back up to get Klay Thompson in 2011.


EDIT:

Yep, I found it:

Cavaliers Tried To Draft Klay Thompson By Dealing For Third Top-10 Pick In 2011


The Cleveland Cavaliers attempted to acquire a third top-10 pick in the 2011 NBA Draft with Klay Thompson as the target, according to a source.

The Cavaliers selected Kyrie Irving first overall, followed by Tristan Thompson at No. 4.

The Cavaliers discussed a deal involving J.J. Hickson for the No. 7 pick, but the Sacramento Kings did a different deal with the Milwaukee Bucks.

Another option was a deal with the Utah Jazz for No. 12, but the Golden State Warriors selected Thompson at No. 11.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...pson-By-Dealing-For-Third-Top-10-Pick-In-2011

Could you imagine... could've gotten Kyrie, Tristan and Klay all in the same draft. Not only do you have a ridiculous nucleus, we would've potentially changed the course of the Warriors' coming resurgence.

Dag nabbit.
 
Hmmm... I was always under the impression that the Cavs really wanted to trade back up to get Klay Thompson in 2011.

They had it wrong though. They should have grabbed Klay at 4 and tried to trade up for Tristan. Unless they had Tristan higher on their board..
 
They had it wrong though. They should have grabbed Klay at 4 and tried to trade up for Tristan. Unless they had Tristan higher on their board..
They obviously did. There are stories about Tristan's workouts being insane. They brought in the other top prospects in the draft and had them play 3-on-3 and TT was just mauling guys like Derrick Williams -- who was seen as the 2nd best player in the draft.

That draft is a great example of why you never should trust the draft "experts" and "gurus." It was seen as incredibly weak and projected by those guys to be one of the worst drafts ever. That is part of the reason we were able to get that Clippers pick without protections, which eventually became Kyrie (to bring it around to thread again)... it was just seen as a bad draft and an opportunity for them to unload some salary without missing out on much talent.

Now, when we look back on it, that was really one of the best drafts ... ever. I think it will go down like that. Kyrie, Kawhi, Butler, Klay, Isaiah, Kemba, TT, and a ton of other really good role players.

This year's draft is getting a lot of hype. They'll be lucky to have half as many stars/role players as 2011.
 
Last edited:
I'm truly concerned about his style of play. Once he gets theball his head goes down and he's selfish. If you could get Paul I'd do that trade.
 
Hey guys, I'm now an editor for a brand new site called Rotoden.com. Y'all can message me if interested. But I figured I'd share my first article with them. Give it a read, please!

https://rotoden.com/2017/06/19/nba-analytics-community-dislikes-kyrie-irving/

Kyrie Irving is perhaps the most polarizing player in the NBA. Supporters – ranging from the average NBA fan to players like Jimmy Butler and Kevin Durant – view him as the most unguardable player in the association. Yet, especially amongst the NBA analytics community, Kyrie Irving is criticized for playing inefficiently, not setting up his teammates, and being a horrendous defender.

The true state of Kyrie Irving’s value lies somewhere in between the two notions. Is he the best offensive player in the NBA? No, absolutely not. Is he a top-seven point guard in the NBA? Yes, probably.

The true legend of Kyrie Irving began during the 2016 NBA Playoffs. Here, the advanced analytics loved Kyrie’s performance. For example, Irving had the highest playoff win shares amongst guards of all-time, the fifth best box plus-minus amongst guards of all-time. and the third-best value-over-replacement-player amongst guards in NBA history.

In fact, the Wall Street Journal conducted a quantitative study and found that Kyrie’s shot that won Game 7 of the 2016 NBA Finals was the most important basket in NBA history. By using a regression analysis to study the impact of a made basket on a team’s chances of winning, and then applying a weight for the shot being a Finals winner, the author finds that

CLEVELAND’S WIN PROBABILITY WHEN LUE CALLED TIMEOUT WAS A COIN FLIP: 50.2%. IT INCHED UPWARD WITH EVERY DRIBBLE AND SPIKED WHEN IRVING SHOT. CLEVELAND’S LIKELIHOOD OF WINNING THE GAME—AND THE NBA TITLE—WAS SUDDENLY 82.3%. THAT CHANGE IN CHAMPIONSHIP PROBABILITY WAS, ACCORDING TO THE JOURNAL’S ANALYSIS, THE LARGEST SWING THE LEAGUE HAS EVER SEEN.

Unfortunately, Irving was unable to maintain this historically great performance during the 2016-17 season; however, that does not mean the year was unproductive. Kyrie Irving still averaged 47% shooting, 40% from the three-point line, 90% from the free throw line, with a 58% true shooting percentage and a 23 PER. These offensive numbers are outstanding.

Furthermore, the area where Irving is perhaps most deadly, is his ability to attack mismatches on offense. I have written about this previously, and Kyrie’s strengths in this regard mirror what makes the Cavaliers’ offense so dominant.

Per Synergy Stats, Kyrie Irving forced a mismatch on 155 total possessions throughout the 2017 playoffs. Moreover, he scored 1.13 points per possession on these opportunities. That number would be good for second best in the NBA behind Irving’s teammate, LeBron James. These numbers were only slightly lower during the regular season, where Irving averaged 1.12 points per possession on defensive switches. Below is a video compilation of how Kyrie attacks these mismatches.




Additionally, because of his threat attacking, teams overplay Kyrie on pick-and-rolls, resulting in easy passes like this:


This ability to see how his own ability opens up the floor for teammates has been Kyrie’s largest area of growth since LeBron returned to Cleveland. While LeBron is the better player, and Love has fewer weaknesses, in many ways the Cavs’ offense is reliant on Irving’s ability to attack.

With an offensive game so dominant that he can attack any position – bigger or smaller, faster or slower, stronger or weaker – successfully, why is it that the analytics community has grown frustrated with Kyrie Irving?

The fact is that, outside of scoring, Irving does not do much else at an elite level. He can pass, and has done a better job of that during the 2016-17 season; however, Kyrie is an atrocious rebounder and defender, does not always move off-ball, and sometimes can have tunnel vision. This is why, throughout their careers, a player such as Steph Curry has consistently done better under advanced statistical methods.

For example, for a guard, Kyrie Irving is a pretty pathetic rebounder. During the 2017 Finals, Steph Curry out-rebounded Kyrie 40-20, or a 2-to-1 ratio. Much of this is not an example of Curry beating Irving on rebounds, but rather, Irving not even trying to rebound.

During the playoffs, per NBA Wowy, when the Warriors play with Draymond Green at center, Steph Curry has an opportunity to gather 11.2% of all rebounds. On the other hand, when the Cavs play with either LeBron James orKevin Love at center, Irving is only in position to grab 4.1% of all rebounds.

This, in part, is not entirely Kyrie’s fault. Per Synergy, the Cavs had the fifth worst transition defense in the NBA during the 2016-17 regular season, allowing 1.175 points per possession. Consequently, during the playoffs, Lue would send his guards back to prevent leak-outs in transition.

The problem is that, per NBA Wowy, Irving was only in position to grab 2.8% of all rebounds during the regular season. Thus, while Lue’s playoff adjustments may contain some degree of partial explanation, it does not tell the entire story. For example:


This video is the perfect example of what Kyrie needs to do better. First, he completely looses Steph Curry on the drive. Secondly, after Steph Curry shoots, rather than boxing him out, Kyrie moves to the side in preparation for a transition run. This decision allowed Curry to rebound his missed shot and easily score.

This is the reason why the analytics community has issues with Kyrie Irving. It is why, during the 2016-17 season, Irving ranked 12th amongst point guards in ESPN’s RPM, 9th amongst point guards in win shares, 15 amongst point guards in box plus-minus, 13th amongst point guards in value-over-replacement-player, and 0th amongst point guards in PER.

I.E., the advanced analytics rank him as a below-top-10 point guard. This is because Irving does not do little things like boxing out and attempting to fight through screens on defense. Guards such as Steph Curry, James Harden, and Russell Westbrook, however, are better than Kyrie because of their ability to do these small things.

Now, should one only look at the advanced metrics? No, definitely not. Irving is penalized by these metrics because he plays with LeBron James. Additionally, stats like RPM have difficulty incorporating point per possession stats, mismatch exploitation, and off-ball movement. These two faults occur because the stats rely on box-score and +/- variants to run their regression. Furthermore, these are areas where Kyrie provides his greatest value.

Consequently, while discussing Kyrie Irving, it is important to look beyond the advanced metrics. Nonetheless, the analytics community has also revealed flaws in Irving’s game. During the 2018 Finals, Kyrie needs to be the third-best player in the series (behind LeBron and Durant). Otherwise the Cavs will lose. This means, like in the 2016 Finals, Irving needs to surpass Curry. This can only occur by fixing small problems, such as his rebounding, and continuing to be the most unstoppable offensive player in the NBA.

A lot of rhetoric has been spent deciding how the Cavs can beat the Warrios. Many say that the Cavs need to build a big four, change their offense, change their defense, etc. The fact is, though, the biggest improvement needs to come from Kyrie Irving. The superstar needs to build other parts of his game in order for his offensive play to truly shine.
 
I'm truly concerned about his style of play. Once he gets theball his head goes down and he's selfish. If you could get Paul I'd do that trade.

I wouldn't trade Irving for anyone but Durant. His d can piss me off but his skills are historically elite. James is the only player I enjoy watching as much as Irving.
 
I wouldn't trade Irving for anyone but Durant. His d can piss me off but his skills are historically elite. James is the only player I enjoy watching as much as Irving.

He's uniquely enjoyable to watch, but I would trade him straight up for the following although most of these are unrealistic:

A. Davis
Durant
Curry
Giannis
Kawhi
Butler

Some others to consider, but for THIS team, based on his contract and age, those for sure.
 
He's uniquely enjoyable to watch, but I would trade him straight up for the following although most of these are unrealistic:

A. Davis
Durant
Curry
Giannis
Kawhi
Butler

Some others to consider, but for THIS team, based on his contract and age, those for sure.

I'm trading him for Towns as well, no matter if he's better than Towns is currently.

But yea, the rest of that is exactly my list as well, as far as 1 for 1 trades go.
 
Seeing reports that kyrie WILL leave if LBJ bolts next summer that would really really suck to lose both guys
 
Ya know it's really weird... Absolutely a true pleasure to have LeBron be a Cavalier.. Reallllllllllly lucky to have one of the greatest ever to be recognized and remembered primarily as a Cavalier for his career....

But damn there was something special about Kyrie hitting that shot where it just felt right....

Would I rather have LeBron over Kyrie ??? Yes of course...!! But would I love to have Kyrie be in that Dirk/Kobe/Duncan situation in which I never have to see him in another uniform like LeBron was supposed to be ?? Yep... Kyrie is special and I truly hope he remains a Cavalier for as long as they can keep him....
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-15: "Cavs Survive and Advance"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:15: Cavs Survive and Advance
Top