2018 Cleveland Browns Off Season Thread

[Randolphkeys]

someone was talking about Bitonio getting shots at tackle a while ago. I believe it was keys.

Would be one of the more interesting dynamics of preseason to me personally.

I've never called my shot on it, I just knew Bitonio was discussed as the replacement for Thomas when he retires back a few years, but then we never heard it again. Then when Joe went down, I expected to see Bitonio get a shot at it near the end of the season, but it didn't happen. Best I can tell, the Browns feel good about the talent level of their top six or seven young linemen but don't necessarily know which five will start where.

 

[Ohio]

I don’t know about that. Coleman was a monster as a prospect. Better than callaway in just about every regard and is still learning. If he can stay healthy Coleman can be a top 20 WR imo.

Nah, Callaway was a better WR in college.

 

[AZ_]

Nah, Callaway was a better WR in college.

...nah

 

[Randolphkeys]

Hey, hey hey...

Goodbye.

 

[Pick6]

this is the first I've heard of Bitonio at LT.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Nah, Callaway was a better WR in college.

By what metric?

Coleman's best college season saw him go for almost double the yards of Callaway's best college season, and even if you just compare their sophomore seasons since Callaway wasn't able to play his junior year, Coleman out-gained him by about 300 yards and his YPC was four yards better. Coleman had more touchdowns his sophomore year than Callaway had in both the years he played in college (12 to 8), and Coleman added twenty more his junior year.

And then, when you compare them as prospects...

• They ran the same forty speed (4.41 and 4.42).
• Coleman has much better burst (95th percentile to 37th percentile), agility (96th percentile to 36th percentile), and catch radius (92nd percentile to 29th).
• Coleman put up a spectacular 44.2% college dominator compared to Callaway's pedestrian 23%.
• As noted, Coleman's college YPR was 18.4 (88th percentile) to Callaway's 13.4 (31st).

That's not to say I dislike Callaway, as I think he's a talented prospect, but saying that he was a better WR in college is both laughable and demonstrably false by every metric available. The only edge Callaway has over Coleman is breakout age, although I'd imagine the lost junior year for Callaway offsets that somewhat. Coleman is a much better athlete who was significantly more productive in college and much more of a big play threat despite essentially being the same size and weight as Callaway.

 

[Ohio]

By what metric?

Coleman's best college season saw him go for almost double the yards of Callaway's best college season, and even if you just compare their sophomore seasons since Callaway wasn't able to play his junior year, Coleman out-gained him by about 300 yards and his YPC was four yards better. Coleman had more touchdowns his sophomore year than Callaway had in both the years he played in college (12 to 8), and Coleman added twenty more his junior year.

And then, when you compare them as prospects...

• They ran the same forty speed (4.41 and 4.42).
• Coleman has much better burst (95th percentile to 37th percentile), agility (96th percentile to 36th percentile), and catch radius (92nd percentile to 29th).
• Coleman put up a spectacular 44.2% college dominator compared to Callaway's pedestrian 23%.
• As noted, Coleman's college YPR was 18.4 (88th percentile) to Callaway's 13.4 (31st).

That's not to say I dislike Callaway, as I think he's a talented prospect, but saying that he was a better WR in college is both laughable and demonstrably false by every metric available. The only edge Callaway has over Coleman is breakout age. Coleman is a much better athlete who was significantly more productive in college and much more of a big play threat despite essentially being the same size and weight as Callaway.

There is no metric. Just going by what my eyes tell me. Just like I did when I knew Michael Thomas was better than Corey Coleman in college, too.

Coleman played against no defenses in an air raid offense. Of course he had stupid numbers.

Callaway was the entire offense for Florida. No QB, no running game, and going against real defenses. Even with all that, he averaged 19 YPR (!) his Freshman year.

Of course, now that we're seeing Coleman play against defenses, we see that he's not a big play threat, at all. And his ability to catch a ball is....questionable, at best.

I mean, if coaches expect Callaway to beat out Coleman, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Post all the SPARQ scores you want, Coleman was laughably overrated as a prospect and simply a bad pick.

 

[Jack Brickman]

There is no metric. Just going by what my eyes tell me. Just like I did when I knew Michael Thomas was better than Corey Coleman in college, too.

Coleman played against no defenses in an air raid offense. Of course he had stupid numbers.

Callaway was the entire offense for Florida. No QB, no running game, and going against real defenses. Even with all that, he averaged 19 YPR (!) his Freshman year.

Of course, now that we're seeing Coleman play against defenses, we see that he's not a big play threat, at all. And his ability to catch a ball is....questionable, at best.

I mean, if coaches expect Callaway to beat out Coleman, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Post all the SPARQ scores you want, Coleman was laughably overrated as a prospect and simply a bad pick.

That 19 YPR was on 35 receptions, so not nearly enough sample size to draw anything from. Coleman put up 18.4 YPR on 74 catches, which is a significantly more viable sample size.

Callaway also clearly wasn't his team's whole offense, as he only put up a 23% dominator.

As for why they expect Callaway to start, I'm guessing it's because he's a Dorsey pick. If he beats out Coleman, it fits the narrative that Coleman was another failed Sashi pick, which is exactly what Dorsey wants and not much different than what he's done at previous stops. He ships out the old regime's guys in favor of his own. Hell, most NFL execs do the same, so it's not exactly surprising. Just disappointing.

 

[Ohio]

That 19 YPR was on 35 receptions, so not nearly enough sample size to draw anything from. Coleman put up 18.4 YPR on 74 catches, which is a significantly more viable sample size.

Callaway also clearly wasn't his team's whole offense, as he only put up a 23% dominator.

Well sure. Callaway was arguably the only talented player on the entire offense. Teams knew that and gameplanned accordingly.

As for why they expect Callaway to start, I'm guessing it's because he's a Dorsey pick. If he beats out Coleman, it fits the narrative that Coleman was another failed Sashi pick, which is exactly what Dorsey wants and not much different than what he's done at previous stops. He ships out the old regime's guys in favor of his own. Hell, most NFL execs do the same, so it's not exactly surprising. Just disappointing.

Well, this is the Browns, so I wouldn't put it past them...but expecting a 5th round pick who hasn't played football in over a year to beat out a 1st round pick simply because of who drafted them would be really stupid. If they do anything other than playing the best players, they are cheating both the team and their fans.

So, if/when Callaway is playing over Coleman, I'm going to make the logical assumption that it's because he's simply a better player. Hue Jackson shouldn't give a shit about the fake "Analytics vs Football guys" narrative people love to push.

 

[Jack Brickman]

So, if/when Callaway is playing over Coleman, I'm going to make the logical assumption that it's because he's simply a better player. Hue Jackson shouldn't give a shit about the fake "Analytics vs Football guys" narrative people love to push.

Hue Jackson wants to keep his job, and so I'm fairly sure that, if Dorsey hinted that he wanted Callaway starting, Hue would probably be inclined to let that happen.

At any rate, I hope Coleman gets traded to a good team. Still holding him in my money dynasty league and it'd be great to see him get an actual chance to break out this year.

 

[tristan+kyrie=$]

Yo @Juice Is Loose any word on Baker? Thanks !

 

[Randolphkeys]

Sorry Jack, but there really isn't much one can take from the raw numbers of the year Callaway played for Florida and the years Coleman played for Baylor. The circumstances of those offenses couldn't be more polar opposite. The Gators had a lame duck OC who was eventually fired, I believe they had a transfer senior at QB who didn't amount to much.

None of that compares to what Baylor does year after year: simple plays and one of the fastest paces in college football to keep a defense off balance - which has failed in the NFL.

I do not believe the GM will force coaches to start inferior players because they are "his guys". Thats the petty crap that greased Farmer's dismissal. Sure it happens, but not on successful teams.

Let these guys compete without attaching some crazy ulterior motive.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I do not believe the GM will force coaches to start inferior players because they are "his guys". Thats the petty crap that greased Farmer's dismissal. Sure it happens, but not on successful teams.

I hate to break this to you, but we haven't been a successful team in over twenty years.

And beyond that, one of the main issues with Dorsey's previous stint with the Chiefs that led to his departure was that he had a habit of paying his own guys at the expense of guys he didn't draft, even if the guy he drafted wasn't as good, so I think it's at the very least a valid concern that he'll do the same here.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I hate to break this to you, but we haven't been a successful team in over twenty years.

Don't mistake the future for the past. Frankly my post wasn't one-sided. I simply agreed with Ohio that the teams they came from had very different situations that impacted raw stats. Nobody's opinions matter, buddy boy! They will figure it out in camp pretty easily.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Don't mistake the future for the past.

I'm not, but at the same time I'm not naive enough to think that this will be the Browns' turning point. Maybe it will be, as it certainly seems like we're on the verge of turning it around, but it feels that way with damn near every regime and I'm always left watching a new GM give his press conference as the old one was fired two years before he had a chance to build anything.