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5-man units and the Rubio impact

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Wham with the Right Hand

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The website cleaningtheglass.com lists the Cavs’ 5-man lineups used this season and how successful each was in terms of net +/-.

For example, the most used lineup (455 possessions) had a net of +10.2 points per 100 possessions, which breaks down to the offense scoring 116.7 and the defense allowing 106.5. The Cavaliers averaged 94 possessions per game.

The 455 possessions for the most used lineup was the 5th lowest in the NBA this season, which points up the number of injuries the Cavs had. Denver was the highest with 1,563 possessions for their most used unit.

The Cavs’ most used 5-man grouping was only on the floor about 6% of the time, or just under 3 minutes per game.

Here are the most successful lineups that had 100 possessions or more:

1. Garland, Okoro, Wade, Mobley, Allen +19.3 (218 possessions)
2. Garland, Stevens, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +13.5 (176)
3. Garland, LeVert, Okoro, Markkanen, Mobley +12.3 (169)
4. Garland, Okoro, Stevens, Markkanen, Mobley +11.4 (140)
5. Garland, Okoro, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +10.2 (455)

Obviously #5 was the normal starting lineup for most of the season, but it was only the 5th most effective unit. Simply by subbing Wade in for Markkanen gets you the #1 unit and an extra 9.1 points. That turned out to be the second most used grouping.

Subbing Stevens for Okoro in the normal starting unit (#5) gets us #2, which was 3.3 points better.

I was happy to see a lineup that included LeVert coming in third place. The lineup I wanted to see was Garland, LeVert, Mark, Mobley, Allen, but due to injuries to LeVert and then Allen we never got to see that unit until the play-in game against Atlanta. According to Chris Fedor, that unit played 24 minutes against the Hawks and was a +8.0. And that was with Allen clearly less than 100%.

The other lineup of interest was to me with respect to next year was Garland, Sexton, Mark, Mobley, and Allen, which registered a +2.1 for 140 possessions.

The only lineup in the negative with over 100 possessions was Garland, LeVert, Okoro, Markkanen, and Moses Brown at -18.6. The same lineup with Love in for Brown was +5.9. Brown did some impressive things but they did not result in a winning unit, in fact, quite the opposite.

The top lineups with fewer than 100 possessions were:

1. Garland, Rubio, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +52.4 (78 possessions)
(This is the normal starting lineup with Rubio in for Okoro)
2. Garland, Rubio, Osman, Mobley, Allen +49.8 (52 poss)
3. Garland, Rubio, Wade, Markkanen, Love +39.4 (42 poss)
4. Garland, Rubio, Osman, Love, Allen +31.0 (41 poss)

And in the under 30 really small sample category:

Garland, Rubio, Okoro, Love, Allen +79.3 (29 poss)
Garland, Rubio, Osman, Markkanen, Love +74.6 (29 poss)

What jumped out at me on these small sample units is the presence of Garland and Rubio in every one. When those two were on the floor together great things happened. Obviously the smaller the sample the less reliable because those lineups may have been in against easy opponents or second units, but the fact that Rubio was in all of the most effective small sample lineups points up how much his injury hurt the team.

Individually, Rubio was second to Garland in net on/off.

I have to believe the loss of Rubio was critical. The Cavs had won 11 of their last 14 when he got hurt. When games were close in the 4th quarter JBB put Garland and Rubio together and they often closed it out with a win. Osman in particular seemed to thrive when Garland and Rubio were in together, as evidenced by his presence in four of the top six small sample units.

The Cavs never adequately replaced Rubio. In the loss to the Hawks, for example, Rajon Rondo was a -18 in 15 minutes on the floor and the Cavs lost by 6.

This off-season Job One, IMO, is to find a veteran point guard that can back up Garland and keep the train rolling when he sits down. I don’t know if it could be Rubio himself; he was hurt at the end of December and the recovery period is usually a full year, if I’m not mistaken. Even then it’s unknown whether he will fully recover for the second half since he will be 32 in October and I believe this is the second ACL tear on that knee.

If not Rubio it has to be somebody. Collin Sexton? I don't know how the Cavs feel about that and whether they want him bouncing between the 1 and 2 every game or just focus on playing one position.
 
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One suggestion for backup point guard next year would be D.J. Augustin, who is a free agent. He'll be 35 in November but this year he averaged 17.8 minutes for the Lakers and shot 45.3% overall and 42.6% on 3's for an effective field goal percentage of 62.2%.
 
I am hesitant to conclude anything with Rubio because it seems the league adjusted to our three tower lineup as the season progressed. Rubio's impact may have become equally less effective when teams locked in.
 
This off-season Job One, IMO, is to find a veteran point guard that can back up Garland and keep the train rolling when he sits down.

Looking at the list of point guard FAs available, the ones that stand out to me (besides Rubio of course) and may be gettable -

Corey Joseph
Tyus Jones
Gary Payton II
Delon Wright

 
Looking at the list of point guard FAs available, the ones that stand out to me (besides Rubio of course) and may be gettable -

Corey Joseph
Tyus Jones
Gary Payton II
Delon Wright

GPII is PG size but he is a pure defender and runner on the floor. I love his game. He might be better on D than his dad was and is an absolute menace. However, he is not a shot creator for himself or others. I dont think JBB would be able to utilize him well.

I would not mind Tyus or Delon. Joseph is washed. Would rather keep Goodwin over him
 
Thanks for that! No surprise Garland/Mobley is in all the most-used units that were effective, while Rubio was in the overall best, which had far better + stats than all 5 of the non-Rubio lineups! Gotta keep this in mind for when @Comeback kid and @KansasCavFan post ;) (while acknowledging we did miss Wade! Great defender! But not our most important player...that was Rubio, then Garland/Mobley.)

I've mentioned before in the Love thread that I think it may be time for Cavs to amicably move on from Love. Markk does most of what Love does already, but is younger.

Also not surprised Moses Brown was in some of the less effective lineups. Dude couldn't even make my OKC team. He was an emergency sign for when we lost Allen...I don't really expect him to be part of the team next season.
 
I am hesitant to conclude anything with Rubio because it seems the league adjusted to our three tower lineup as the season progressed. Rubio's impact may have become equally less effective when teams locked in.
I don’t know about that...the “three tower lineup” barely played together the last few months of the season. First Markkanen was out for a stretch, and then Allen.

And Garland had to take every other game off for a while as well because of the back issue. Trying to integrate LeVert in properly was a challenge that didn’t really work out either.

The team just never got back in a cohesive rhythm after December.
 
I am hesitant to conclude anything with Rubio because it seems the league adjusted to our three tower lineup as the season progressed. Rubio's impact may have become equally less effective when teams locked in.
I'm not sure how we come to that conclusion when after the Rubio injury, which besides being a blow to our offense also was a small blow to our perimeter defense, Garland + the thee Bigs only played in 14 of the remaining 48 regular season games all together
 
I don’t know about that...the “three tower lineup” barely played together the last few months of the season. First Markkanen was out for a stretch, and then Allen.

And Garland had to take every other game off for a while as well because of the back issue.

The team just never got back in a cohesive rhythm after December.
I might be off by a game or two but using the BBRef game logs, it was only 14 of 48 post Rubio injury games that Garland and the three bigs all played together.
 
Looking at the list of point guard FAs available, the ones that stand out to me (besides Rubio of course) and may be gettable -

Corey Joseph
Tyus Jones
Gary Payton II
Delon Wright

Wright has been on six teams in the last four years. I like his numbers with Atlanta this year but I want to know why he's changed teams so much.

I like Jones.

A trade for a backup point guard is also a possibility.
 
The website cleaningtheglass.com lists the Cavs’ 5-man lineups used this season and how successful each was in terms of net +/-.

For example, the most used lineup (455 possessions) had a net of +10.2 points per 100 possessions, which breaks down to the offense scoring 116.7 and the defense allowing 106.5. The Cavaliers averaged 94 possessions per game.

The 455 possessions for the most used lineup was the 5th lowest in the NBA this season, which points up the number of injuries the Cavs had. Denver was the highest with 1,563 possessions for their most used unit.

The Cavs’ most used 5-man grouping was only on the floor about 6% of the time, or just under 3 minutes per game.

Here are the most successful lineups that had 100 possessions or more:

1. Garland, Okoro, Wade, Mobley, Allen +19.3 (218 possessions)
2. Garland, Stevens, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +13.5 (176)
3. Garland, LeVert, Okoro, Markkanen, Mobley +12.3 (169)
4. Garland, Okoro, Stevens, Markkanen, Mobley +11.4 (140)
5. Garland, Okoro, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +10.2 (455)

Obviously #5 was the normal starting lineup for most of the season, but it was only the 5th most effective unit. Simply by subbing Wade in for Markkanen gets you the #1 unit and an extra 9.1 points. That turned out to be the second most used grouping.

Subbing Stevens for Okoro in the normal starting unit (#5) gets us #2, which was 3.3 points better.

I was happy to see a lineup that included LeVert coming in third place. The lineup I wanted to see was Garland, LeVert, Mark, Mobley, Allen, but due to injuries to LeVert and then Allen we never got to see that unit until the play-in game against Atlanta. According to Chris Fedor, that unit played 24 minutes against the Hawks and was a +8.0. And that was with Allen clearly less than 100%.

The other lineup of interest was to me with respect to next year was Garland, Sexton, Mark, Mobley, and Allen, which registered a +2.1 for 140 possessions.

The only lineup in the negative with over 100 possessions was Garland, LeVert, Okoro, Markkanen, and Moses Brown at -18.6. The same lineup with Love in for Brown was +5.9. Brown did some impressive things but they did not result in a winning unit, in fact, quite the opposite.

The top lineups with fewer than 100 possessions were:

1. Garland, Rubio, Markkanen, Mobley, Allen +52.4 (78 possessions)
(This is the normal starting lineup with Rubio in for Okoro)
2. Garland, Rubio, Osman, Mobley, Allen +49.8 (52 poss)
3. Garland, Rubio, Wade, Markkanen, Love +39.4 (42 poss)
4. Garland, Rubio, Osman, Love, Allen +31.0 (41 poss)

And in the under 30 really small sample category:

Garland, Rubio, Okoro, Love, Allen +79.3 (29 poss)
Garland, Rubio, Osman, Markkanen, Love +74.6 (29 poss)

What jumped out at me on these small sample units is the presence of Garland and Rubio in every one. When those two were on the floor together great things happened. Obviously the smaller the sample the less reliable because those lineups may have been in against easy opponents or second units, but the fact that Rubio was in all of the most effective small sample lineups points up how much his injury hurt the team.

Individually, Rubio was second to Garland in net on/off.

I have to believe the loss of Rubio was critical. The Cavs had won 11 of their last 14 when he got hurt. When games were close in the 4th quarter JBB put Garland and Rubio together and they often closed it out with a win. Osman in particular seemed to thrive when Garland and Rubio were in together, as evidenced by his presence in four of the top six small sample units.

The Cavs never adequately replaced Rubio. In the loss to the Hawks, for example, Rajon Rondo was a -18 in 15 minutes on the floor and the Cavs lost by 6.

This off-season Job One, IMO, is to find a veteran point guard that can back up Garland and keep the train rolling when he sits down. I don’t know if it could be Rubio himself; he was hurt at the end of December and the recovery period is usually a full year, if I’m not mistaken. Even then it’s unknown whether he will fully recover for the second half since he will be 32 in October and I believe this is the second ACL tear on that knee.

If not Rubio it has to be somebody. Collin Sexton? I don't know how the Cavs feel about that and whether they want him bouncing between the 1 and 2 every game or just focus on playing one position.

Great stuff as always @Wham with the Right Hand!

It's eye popping what Rubio's impact is on the lineups, even counting the small sample. And it matches the eye test very well obviously.

One thing though, I don't think it's the backup point guard aspect that we need to try and replicate after the loss of Ricky. Well that too of course, as Rubio was the only guy that managed to keep things rolling without Garland.

But as your numbers above point out, Rubio's highest impact was with Garland on the floor. It gave us two guys with amazing PnR decision making. And since Garland is so good off the ball, and Rubio is so good at running the offense, it was a match made in heaven. Defenses really had to account for both at the same time knowing either can score himself, or find the other, or use any of the other weapons, all at the same time.

Plus Rubio's defense really is another aspect. You don't find so many guys that can provide actual PG play and guard the 2s.

Our offense would be ridiculous if we managed to find a long term guy at the 2 (or the 3) that can be a similar PnR decision maker as Rubio/DG. Actually I think it could've lead to the LeVert selection over other options too, but he's just too iso focused. I'm not sure who that guy could be though. I still have some hope for Sexton, but he's more a scorer only.

Rubio's fit was truly amazing. If he can come back at the same level, our offense would be vastly better. If he can't, im not sure we can emulate a similar type of dynamism.

Anyone has idea who could be fits? I'm looking at Jaden Ivey, if he can elevate his playmaking, he could eventually be someone similar.
 
Wright has been on six teams in the last four years. I like his numbers with Atlanta this year but I want to know why he's changed teams so much.

I like Jones.

A trade for a backup point guard is also a possibility.

Cedi for TJ McConnell.

Besides the already mentioned names, Tre Jones and Ish Smith could be minor trades too, although not my preferred first options.
 
I am hesitant to conclude anything with Rubio because it seems the league adjusted to our three tower lineup as the season progressed. Rubio's impact may have become equally less effective when teams locked in.
Great post , I was thinking the exact same thing, teams really don’t start game planning or taking the league serious the first 2 months or so, I’m sure the league would have adjusted to Rubio game just like they did with Garland, especially when it came to the pick n roll lob…..
 

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