$9 Billion Lawsuit Planned Against Indians

[AZ_]

What does chief wahoo do exactly that is offensive?Its a cartoon depicted from a time when Native Americans were classified as a sort of sub human race and were openly discriminated against

what if these groups found dressing up as an indian on halloween offensive. They're not arguing this

what if they decided alll tomohawks are offensive and wanted to ban them or not allow people to call them tomahawks They're not

If they are so offensive why do Certain tribes approve college sport teams and endorse their representation.. Because they do it without depicting them as Black Sambo, would be the easy answer. The fact that these schools asked for and received approval was a step in the right direction as well

Why do these same tribes suing football and baseball teams use these same logos and names for their own organized sports. Like what?

there multiple questions to ask here.. do the logos inspire hatred prejudice or harm toNative american indians. Nobody is arguing that they do, and it's beside the point

This is America where capitalism is key. if these people do not like the logo or any other apsect of the team they have a choice not to purchase that companies product. Don't use capitalism as a means for saying it's OK to discriminate, it's an argument going nowhere

.

 

[Tlyons]

Don't worry white people. You will be a minority soon enough. You'll get your chance to complain when latinos form The Minnesota Gringos.

 

[macbdog]

I really don't get the 'sky is falling' slippery slope argument- as if by giving in to these offended native Americans will lead to some massive decay in American society. The irony in all of this is that folks think that people like Roche are taking the logo too seriously... yet the backlash to replacing what is, without the racial implications, a silly ridculous logo that only Clevelanders honestly care about shows the same problem of taking it too seriously. I just don't understand the love affair with an ugly logo that is came into being as the Tribe's success in the 40s and 50s was coming to an end and pretty much symbolizes the club's 35 year run of futility. It seems that a portion of the Cleveland fan base only virrulently clings to it because someone else has told them it is stupid. I didn't wear the Chief as a kid because I thought it looked dumb and childish. So I guess it just boggles my mind how so many can still cling to something so absurd, something that many other cities would have left behind long ago for reasons beyond its' racist implications. But oh well. Just another example of 'that's Cleveland' for the rest of the nation.

 

[The Oi]

Macbdog got it.

 

[Steve_424]

So if Chief Wahoo was translucent, it would be fine? Are we insinuating that Native Americans have big teeth/smiles? And what exactly does straight out of the 40s mean? I feel like you're reaching.

I get how the Redskins name could be seen as offensive. I totally get it. But where does this stop? The Indians aren't profiting off Chief Wahoo. Their logo could be a block of wood and they would still sell merchandise. It's irrelevant in my eyes.

I won't be mad if they do away with it, but it's just annoying how these kinds of suits will continue to pop up. However, I KNEW this was bound to happen. I figured it would have a long time ago.

Aside from all of that stuff in the team shop with Chief Wahoo on it that they make money on, I agree.

 

[Steve_424]

In all reality, the Indians have already decided to dump Chief Wahoo. It's still on the team's merchandise but look around Progressive Field the next time you're there - you'll be hard-pressed to find Wahoo in many places. They've actually been trying for years, starting with the Script I logo that failed. Furthermore, the actual size of Chief Wahoo has been smaller and smaller and the Block C logo is used as the primary logo in promotional items.

Again, the decision has already been made.

I wish the organization would move forward and just remove the logo altogether starting in 2015. In not doing so, the Indians are indirectly telling fans the logo is OK while clearly simultaneously feeling the opposite way. Keep the name, remove the logo, and move on...I promise the only thing that will change it it will make those "Keep the Chief" shirts outdated.

 

[JSS2306]

There are points for both sides. Both sides of the issue make sense.

We can't continue to use the past as a source of dignity. If records were kept from the earliest of humans in a sustainable way then we would probably have verbs for team names because if we used adjectives there would be something offensive for everybody. The United States of America is the first/only country to give a flying fuck (way beyond legally) and to give a shit if you cared about it. This country is still a teenager in historical terms and we sure act like it. People don't wear the Indians logo as a slight against Native Americans. They wear it because it represents their city, family, and culture. It represents Cleveland in this geographical location. It's a source of pride for all races including Native Americans in 2014.

I'm not saying forget the past but I am saying recognize change when you see it. This is not a symbol of racism in America and it shouldn't be treated as such. If anything, it should be a beacon of responsible reflection and admiration as today's children look up to the logo and wish one day that they too can wear it on their jersey as they step up to the plate.

In the end, while history can teach many lessons, it shouldn't be the teacher of current lessons. We live in different times and we are doing ourselves a disservice by perpetuating the past as some sort of bible for what we do in the future. It only creates controversy and ultimately moves the needle zero.

You can ask a robot on your phone for directions to the nearest taco bell at 2 a.m. so the least we can do is act a little more grown up as a society.

 

[Tornicade]

.

no Indians have always been consider equals but with a less evolved culture.it was in the late fifties that American policy towards Indians went the wrong direction. in the thirties there was alot of things done on the positive end

Roosevelt was very pro indian as presidents go.

in the thirties you had tribal government .. it didnt completely accompolish the goal of self determination but it laid the groundwork for further improvements in the sixties.
In wwII over 44.00 thousand Indians serred in the military and often servicemen would call them chief as a sign of respect.

it was in the forties that Indians also were able to start finding high paying job in the urban era. the americian society for Indians was formed and gone by this time in Columbus ohio.

Your family may have seen them as a sub human race but mine and many others did not.


oh come now dont pretend this is an isolated instance only related Clevelands chief wahoo. The AIM and other Indian political groups before them have lon campaigned against all forms of entertainment depicting indians.. such as early westerns and wild west shows. to today asking teams frequently to remove logos and names and even then some tribes choose to give some teams their blessings.

you know a group of made spoof logos for sports teams one called the new york jew and the san francisco chinamen.. those didnt really bother me either.

but since you wanna keep mentioning black sambo lets take a look at black sambo

Black Sambo was a minstrel show dating back to the 1830's . one where white and black actors would put on blackface and lampoon an entire race. showing them as buffons and lazy and a host of other very insulting actions and behaviors.

this live caricature then evolved into a cartoon that did the same. Did the Cavs logo take any action showing as derogatory to a race of people and if so what?

should caractures not be allowed because of black sambo in general?

do we see chief wahoo being portrayed at the level of animals.

When Little black sambo was ceated the Name sambo was already an anti black epitaph.

by the 40's and fifties sambo was already banned from children list books and its a completely type of caricature.


but once again was he really based on sambo?

This was from 1932 and the author is Fred George Reinart a well known caricaturist of all races. He worked for the Cleveland Plain Dealer in the thirties and would make a comic strip based ont he Indians Game Results

He was called the little indian and was the most likely source for the Indians logo.


as far as Chief Wahoo.. it was a sometimes used nickname for the Super Chief Allie Reynolds



You know all this stuff AZ yet you continue to make the sensationalist argument that you know has no roots in order to villify the logo.

 

[Tornicade]

speaking of hall of famer sports artist

Dick Duggan

musta really hated whites ... look at this crap

Stand up Murica! Caricatures are the true evil

 

[czvo]

This thread is amazing.

(ADDED: Just so I'm actually contributing something to this thread, the Chief Wahoo logo is clearly offensive. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to acknowledge that.)

 

[The Oi]

Torn,


What exactly were/are you doing on the reservations and how did you get involved with that? What the hell is your backstory? Need as much detail as possible.

One of the strangest human beings I've ever come across, and I mean that in a somewhat positive way.

 

[Tornicade]

Torn,


What exactly were/are you doing on the reservations and how did you get involved with that? What the hell is your backstory? Need as much detail as possible.

One of the strangest human beings I've ever come across, and I mean that in a somewhat positive way.

When I said settlement i meant the legal settlement not an actual settlement.

http://videos.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/2014/06/johnny_manziel_speaks_to_media.html


What i did was submit claims for the settlement. it included indentifying im number. lettig people know what their settlement as. tracking unpaid funds. locating individuals who had passed away.
Getting current address and such.

It was a mess. I would talk to about 40 to 80 people a day for about 3 months. this was about 3 years ago and they still dont have the current addresses for about 30,000 people.

i have family in ohio and Kentucky and spent some time in missouri when i was a kid so i grew up with an urban and rural perspective on a lot of things.

I was raised Lutheran on one side of the family and baptist on the other.

My dad played basketball for south high having children early sent him to the coal mines as is most of my family on that side . (including my grandmother in the eighties) on my mother side a family of postal workers.

alot of different political views there.

just another juvenile delinquent that questioned everything.

one of my aunts had bookmobile ( in case people dont know what it is someone would load up a bunch of books and drive around during the summer so people could check them out. so i would read alot

nothing special

I was a high school dropout.. a College dropout ... Ive lived on the streets, in my car , lived with a family that had 6 kids , lived with friends in that party all the time environment (although i didnt party that much myself . i preferred being in control of myself) , lived as a hermit, etc . It wasnt until i got to about 30 before i started putting things together. so here i am a decade later on a forums wondering why the hell an indian advocacy group is so much more concerned about a silly drawing that noone actually associates with a real indian when that money and revenue could be going to worthy causes such as keeping their tribal councils in order and focusing on how their own ethnicity presents itself. but hey thats why their families left the reservation and integrated into society. they didnt want to deal with that.

on the otherhand just like the aarp they need controversies like that to generate money and awareness by tackling things people know about and might be sympathetic.


theres your background do with it what ya will

 

[RealKingofCleve]

Overly sensitive. Where is the outcry to get this removed?

Its a damn sports mascot, don't people have anything better to do than endlessly bitch about this? There are tons of more serious problems for Native Americans to focus their energy on

 

[Tornicade]

Overly sensitive. Where is the outcry to get this removed?

Its a damn sports mascot, don't people have anything better to do than endlessly bitch about this? There are tons of more serious problems for Native Americans to focus their energy on

Theres no outcry because there is no identity crisis. The American Indian as a culture still havent figured out where they want to go forward and have not come to grip with their heritage. some of ashamed of their past.. others embrace it.

some apparently believe that removing reference to their culture from sports teams monikers and logos will give them some of their identity back. Meanwhile individuals of the tribe are suing the national government and affecting real change.

one thing for sure threatening a 9 billion dollar frivolous lawsuit reeks of sensationalism. its a shame. AIM cannot think of better ways to advance their cause and address the real problems within their culture.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

Overly sensitive. Where is the outcry to get this removed?

Its a damn sports mascot, don't people have anything better to do than endlessly bitch about this? There are tons of more serious problems for Native Americans to focus their energy on

The mascot for Notre Dame is a leprechaun, not an actual Irishman. The Native Americans who care about Chief Wahoo had their culture and people nearly wiped out by the ancestors of the people who are now using a cheap and racist caricature to market a team. Not to mention Irish people are accepted in America, while many Native Americans feel alienated from American society, and caricatures like Chief Wahoo do not help to heal the wounds.

Think about it. Native Americans have been pushed around for hundreds of years. Of course they have other important things to worry about just like everyone else does. Does that mean they should just look the other way? This caricature is a constant reminder of the racism and other hardships they've had to go through thanks to the ancestors of the people who now profit from it. They have found few victories over the course of the last few hundred years, and getting rid of Chief Wahoo would be a small step toward building back up their pride.