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A Thread About Women

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

How do you feel about the recent women movement in America?


  • Total voters
    44
http://www.dailywire.com/news/17400/google-hiring-less-white-men-progress-robert-kraychik

Simply replace "white men" with "black women" and ask yourself if it's okay.

Try it...

"Hiring fewer black women and pursuing hiring more whites and men is moving in the right direction."

Would depend on the context.

If the company was all black women, and there was no reason for it to be, then yes that would be a move in the right direction...

Now, can you try my word swap, or nah?
 
Don't think he said all women were less capable, at all.

I think he was specifically talking about the differences in average and why synthetically creating parity between sexes was illogical and superfluous. If men are more suited (based on personality and temperament and inherent capabilities) you'll naturally get three qualified men candidates for every one qualified female candidate

The Atlantic on misrepresentation of his position.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/536181/


Hes not claiming we should make this a science experiment and social statement. He's showing why the science doesn't equate with the apparent agenda and discrepancies in hiring preferences.

I haven't read the damned thing (only snippets) and I can't find it anywhere so if someone wants to link it, it'd be helpful
Remember, he merely 'implied' that women were less capable engineers. Which to me means he didn't need to say anything of the sort. It just needed to go through the correct filter, and if you squint hard enough you might see it.
 
Can you provide the quote where he implied that women are less capable engineers?

It's implied by the totality of the argument presented within the manifesto... It's not a specific, explicit, or singular quote. That's... the point.

Thanks for the definition though. Otherwise I'd have gone the rest of my life looking like a moron.

No problem.

So when I said I hadn't read the entire document you inaccurately 'implied' that I hadn't read it at all several times. Is that how that word works?

No....

I explicitly stated that you hadn't read it since you explicitly stated you hadn't read it.

There was nothing inaccurate or implied about any of those statements.

Hope this helps in the future.

Oh, and again, I'll ask for the last time, is your opinion on this firm or are you remotely open to debate and potentially changing your mind?
 
Would depend on the context.

If the company was all black women, and there was no reason for it to be, then yes that would be a move in the right direction...

Now, can you try my word swap, or nah?
Why not just hire who you think is the most qualified person regardless of race?
 
@gourimoko Until you provide a quote from the article that we can all digest ourselves your claim of the entirety of the article implying that women are less capable engineers is unfounded.
 
Would depend on the context.

If the company was all black women, and there was no reason for it to be, then yes that would be a move in the right direction...

Now, can you try my word swap, or nah?
Sure, is there any science to back up the claim about Ashkenazi Jews? My knowledge on this is very elementary, so this is just from a quick Google (ironic) search.

The average iq of an Ashkenazi Jew is nearly one SD higher than the average white person. Fom Wiki - "A study found that Jews had only mediocre visual-spatial intelligence, while their verbal IQ (which includes verbal reasoning, comprehension and working memory) compensated for this with a high median of 125.6."

One theory for this is: "From roughly 800 to 1650 CE, Jews in Europe were a mostly isolated genetic group. When Jews married non-Jews, they usually left the Jewish community; few non-Jews married into the Jewish community. During the same period, laws barred Jews from working most jobs, including farming and crafts, and forced them into finance, management, and international trade. Wealthy Jews had several more children per family than poor Jews. So, genes for cognitive traits such as verbal and mathematical talent, which make a person successful in the few fields where Jews could work, were favored; genes for irrelevant traits, such as spatio-visual abilities, were supported by less selective pressure than in the general population."

So basically, if science can show that it's true then I wouldn't be offended by someone saying it. If ashkenazi Jews, on average, have lower spatial aptitudes then I can see how that would affect them in computer programming jobs.
 
Don't think he said all women were less capable, at all.

I haven't read the damned thing (only snippets) and I can't find it anywhere so if someone wants to link it, it'd be helpful

Implication: Women would be better off with pair programming (which is atypical):

"We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this)"

Implication: Again, women would be better off with programming cooperatives at a more fundamental level than the current Google model:

"Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive"

Implication: Women do not thrive in stressful situations as much as men do; and since software development is often stressful (by design) due to deadlines, this makes them less successful:

"Make tech and leadership less stressful. Google already partly does this with its many stress reduction courses and benefits."

I think he was specifically talking about the differences in average and why synthetically manufacturing parity between sexes was illogical and superfluous. If men are more suited (based on personality and temperament and inherent capabilities. And interests) you'll naturally get three qualified male candidates for every one qualified female candidate

But he has no basis for this claim, and as someone in the field I see no rationale for his argument. It makes literally, no sense, whatsoever.

Hes not claiming we should make this a science experiment and social statement. He's showing why the science doesn't equate with the apparent agenda and discrepancies in hiring preferences.

There's no scientifically accepted rationale for the basis of his argument.

There are countless data that show differences between the average temperament and interest between men and women. This isn't a eugenics project of people that aknowledge natural differences, it's an experiment of people who try to manufacture an unnatural outcome.

I don't disagree with the bolded, specifically; but I'd have to as you to go from the bolded, which you present here and to which we agree, to the conclusion that there is a natural difference between men and women with respect to software engineering, design and development.
 
Sure, is there any science to back up the claim about Ashkenazi Jews? My knowledge on this is very elementary, so this is just from a quick Google (ironic) search.

No... of course not.

The average iq of an Ashkenazi Jew is nearly one SD higher than the average white person. Fom Wiki - "A study found that Jews had only mediocre visual-spatial intelligence, while their verbal IQ (which includes verbal reasoning, comprehension and working memory) compensated for this with a high median of 125.6."

One theory for this is: "From roughly 800 to 1650 CE, Jews in Europe were a mostly isolated genetic group. When Jews married non-Jews, they usually left the Jewish community; few non-Jews married into the Jewish community. During the same period, laws barred Jews from working most jobs, including farming and crafts, and forced them into finance, management, and international trade. Wealthy Jews had several more children per family than poor Jews. So, genes for cognitive traits such as verbal and mathematical talent, which make a person successful in the few fields where Jews could work, were favored; genes for irrelevant traits, such as spatio-visual abilities, were supported by less selective pressure than in the general population."

So basically, if science can show that it's true then I wouldn't be offended by someone saying it. If ashkenazi Jews, on average, have lower spatial aptitudes then I can see how that would affect them in computer programming jobs.

I honestly wasn't expecting to have an argument about eugenics... That.. wasn't my point...

Oookay, well, then lets take another approach here..

Can you explain to me how some ethnicity or gender with "lower spatial aptitudes" makes for a worse programmer?
 
Implication: Women would be better off with pair programming (which is atypical):
"We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this)"

Implication: Again, women would be better off with programming cooperatives at a more fundamental level than the current Google model:

"Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive"

Implication: Women do not thrive in stressful situations as much as men do; and since software development is often stressful (by design) due to deadlines, this makes them less successful:

"Make tech and leadership less stressful. Google already partly does this with its many stress reduction courses and benefits."



But he has no basis for this claim, and as someone in the field I see no rationale for his argument. It makes literally, no sense, whatsoever.



There's no scientifically accepted rationale for the basis of his argument.



I don't disagree with the bolded, specifically; but I'd have to as you to go from the bolded, which you present here and to which we agree, to the conclusion that there is a natural difference between men and women with respect to software engineering, design and development.
Non-discriminatory ways to reduce the gender gap
Below I'll go over some of the differences in distribution of traits between men and women that I
outlined in the previous section and suggest ways to address them to increase women's
representation in tech without resorting to discrimination. Google is already making strides in
many of these areas, but I think it's still instructive to list them:

Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things


We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming
and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how
people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive
ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get
female students into coding might be doing this).

Women on average are more cooperative

Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive. Recent updates to Perf may
be doing this to an extent, but maybe there's more we can do.

This doesn't mean that we should remove all competitiveness from Google.
Competitiveness and self reliance can be valuable traits and we shouldn't
necessarily disadvantage those that have them, like
what's been done in
education
.

Women on average are more prone to anxiety
____________________________________________________________________________
4
For heterosexual romantic relationships,
men are more strongly judged by status and women by beauty
.
Again, this has
biological
origins and is culturally universal.

Make tech and leadership less stressful. Google already partly does this with its
many stress reduction courses and benefits.

Women on average look for more work-life balance
while men have a higher drive for
status on average

Unfortunately, as long as tech and leadership remain high status, lucrative
careers, men may disproportionately want to be in them. Allowing and truly
endorsing (as part of our culture)
part time work
though can keep more women in
tech.

The male gender role is currently inflexible

Feminism has made great progress in freeing women from the female gender
role, but men are still very much tied to the male gender role. If we, as a society,
allow men to be more "feminine," then the gender gap will shrink, although
probably because men will leave tech and leadership for traditionally "feminine"
roles.
 
For those that are having a hard time understanding this, simply replace "women" with "Jews" and ask yourself if he should be fired.

Try it...

i.e.: Ashkenazi Jews have a specific biology more suited to finance and law, and not the more logical and analytical requirements of ... software development? (lol) .. Now I've said something contentious and outrageous, you can't fire me, time for "open discussion."

No bro, that's not how this works... Adios.

This is such a good post in so many ways. And this is such a good exercise.

I just had a similar incident at work today, where a coworker made a joke about Asians... Basically another guy said they hoped for some more experienced candidates (we get a lot of young analyst types) and the other guy said "you mean not asians". And it was a really uncomfortable moment where everyone seemed a bit shocked, but kinda ignored it and moved on the conversation. (The first guy acutally did mean older candidates with more experience)

Why did he think this is ok to say this? Imagine saying "you mean not blacks" or "you mean not Jews". Like holy shit. Those would both be fireable and everyone would understand why.
 
My take is that he suggested pairing women with other engineers because they are more social by nature; not because they are incompetent. Also he wanted to reduce stress there because on average women suffer from more anxiety. I don't see anything wrong there. In fact that would benefit both sexes as both suffer from stress and anxiety.
 
Non-discriminatory ways to reduce the gender gap
Below I'll go over some of the differences in distribution of traits between men and women that I
outlined in the previous section and suggest ways to address them to increase women's
representation in tech without resorting to discrimination. Google is already making strides in
many of these areas, but I think it's still instructive to list them:

Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things


We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming
and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how
people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive
ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get
female students into coding might be doing this).

Women on average are more cooperative

Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive. Recent updates to Perf may
be doing this to an extent, but maybe there's more we can do.

This doesn't mean that we should remove all competitiveness from Google.
Competitiveness and self reliance can be valuable traits and we shouldn't
necessarily disadvantage those that have them, like
what's been done in
education
.

Women on average are more prone to anxiety
____________________________________________________________________________
4
For heterosexual romantic relationships,
men are more strongly judged by status and women by beauty
.
Again, this has
biological
origins and is culturally universal.

Make tech and leadership less stressful. Google already partly does this with its
many stress reduction courses and benefits.

Women on average look for more work-life balance
while men have a higher drive for
status on average

Unfortunately, as long as tech and leadership remain high status, lucrative
careers, men may disproportionately want to be in them. Allowing and truly
endorsing (as part of our culture)
part time work
though can keep more women in
tech.

The male gender role is currently inflexible

Feminism has made great progress in freeing women from the female gender
role, but men are still very much tied to the male gender role. If we, as a society,
allow men to be more "feminine," then the gender gap will shrink, although
probably because men will leave tech and leadership for traditionally "feminine"
roles.

Ty, posting this doesn't actually, in any way, change the point being made...

You asked where the implication was made, I posted it..
 
Ty, posting this doesn't actually, in any way, change the point being made...

You asked where the implication was made, I posted it..
And then I posted the full section where you omitted the important piece I bolded and gave my take.
 

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