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Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

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Chris said:
Funny because Colin acted like he’d been converted after having Baker on. Then instantly went back to irrational hate a week later.
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Is he talking about "backwards hat guy" not being able to lead a NFL team?
 
bboy said:
wow Cowherd and his cronies despise Baker...praying for him to fail...Darnold love Mayfield hate...
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Cowherd has to stick with his guns. He has been calling Darnold a future hall of famer for basically a year now.
 
@Randolphkeys @CBBI just a fantastic debate here with you two. Others too, but wow, thanks for the info and insight. Now back to wasting keystrokes and bandwidth posting my uninformed opinion!

Tyrod not starting would trickle down to other NFL players that he was promised the starting job and it was taken away. He deserves first crack, and we can reassess as time goes on or losses pile up.

Mayfield will get burn if the game is out of reach in either direction.

Mayfield could get “change of pace” or “light a fire under the team’s ass” series during competitive minutes.

My biggest pro-Tyrod argument (besides I think he deserves it and hasn’t lost that incumbent spot), is that the rest of the O needs time to gel. If we can fix that variable by the bye week, or the minute we are out of contention, we move on.

It also seems logically congruent to start Tyrod:
If he starts and we win, he almost certainly is doing a good job running the offense.
If he starts and we lose, he almost certainly will be part of the problem.
If he starts and we are mediocre, then we will be out of contention by the bye week, and Baker will get his chance.

As far as winning culture is concerned and learning to win, I have to disagree with you, mr. @The Human Q-Tip. Absolutely there’s a stench and a cloud from the last 2 seasons. I can’t logically prove it, but I remember watching a game last year where we were winning at the half or really close and Miles comes in with the motherfucking brontosaurus strip sack special. Or maybe it was the pterodactyl tipped ball INT. Great play! I think we returned it for a TD or at least were set up with excellent field position. BUT, he was called for lining up offsides. The suck didn’t end there: the opponent marched it down the field and scored a TD. It was so futile on so many levels. I only mention it because that shit is about to stop.
 
natedagg said:
@Randolphkeys @CBBI just a fantastic debate here with you two. Others too, but wow, thanks for the info and insight. Now back to wasting keystrokes and bandwidth posting my uninformed opinion!

Tyrod not starting would trickle down to other NFL players that he was promised the starting job and it was taken away. He deserves first crack, and we can reassess as time goes on or losses pile up.
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I actually agree with this -- it's the biggest reason I'm okay with starting Tyrod even if Mayfield looks to be just as good/better. But I also don't think that's enough of a reason for him to be the starter for the entire season.

I do want to say that I am very much on the side of @CBBI when it comes to Mayfield being a 5 year guy with 43 career starts. That really matters, especially in an age when so many QB's are coming out of college with much less experience. I'm also sufficiently impressed by Mayfield's personality/demeanor (and experience) that I don't see him as the kind of guy to lose confidence if he hits adversity.

As far as winning culture is concerned and learning to win, I have to disagree with you, mr. @The Human Q-Tip. Absolutely there’s a stench and a cloud from the last 2 seasons. I can’t logically prove it, but I remember watching a game last year where we were winning at the half or really close and Miles comes in with the motherfucking brontosaurus strip sack special. Or maybe it was the pterodactyl tipped ball INT. Great play! I think we returned it for a TD or at least were set up with excellent field position. BUT, he was called for lining up offsides. The suck didn’t end there: the opponent marched it down the field and scored a TD. It was so futile on so many levels. I only mention it because that shit is about to stop.
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I agree that losing can be contagious. But three points:

1) I have yet to see a team have that kind of defeatist attitude carry over from one season to the next, though it can carry over from one game to the next within a season. Guys usually come out of camp all optimistic (especially going undefeated in the preseason). What drags them down is when they start to rack up losses within a season. That's what builds the defeatest mentality for that season. Now, maybe a long-term losing pattern may make you fall back into that more easily in subsequent seasons, but I still think most guys at least start the season thinking "this time it is going to be different."

2) I don't think that mentality is hard to reverse -- all it takes is a win for guys to start believing. We've seen that here plenty of times. So, I don't think reversing that "losing culture" is a giant hurdle. Just win a fucking football game, which I think we are good enough to do.

3) I'm not advocating playing Mayfield just to give him experience. I don't think you start to have that discussion until you think he can go into a game and give you as much or more than Tyrod. In other words, until you believe that he gives you at least as good a chance to win, and so move up the ladder of building a winning culture.

That being said, I still think you start Tyrod anyway, at least for a few games. If we go 0-3, the team is starting to look demoralized and the coaches think Mayfield is ready, then make a move.
 
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The Human Q-Tip said:
I actually agree with this -- it's the biggest reason I'm okay with starting Tyrod even if Mayfield looks to be just as good/better. But I also don't think that's enough of a reason for him to be the starter for the entire season.

I do want to say that I am very much on the side of @CBBI when it comes to Manziel being a 5 year guy with 43 career starts. That really matters, especially in an age when so many QB's are coming out of college with much less experience. I'm also sufficiently impressed by Mayfield's personality/demeanor (and experience) that I don't see him as the kind of guy to lose confidence if he hits adversity.



I agree that losing can be contagious. But three points:

1) I have yet to see a team have that kind of defeatist attitude carry over from one season to the next, though it can carry over from one game to the next within a season. Guys usually come out of camp all optimistic (especially going undefeated in the preseason). What drags them down is when they start to rack up losses within a season. That's what builds the defeatest mentality for that season. Now, maybe a long-term losing pattern may make you fall back into that more easily in subsequent seasons, but I still think most guys at least start the season thinking "this time it is going to be different."

2) I don't think that mentality is hard to reverse -- all it takes is a win for guys to start believing. We've seen that here plenty of times. So, I don't think reversing that "losing culture" is a giant hurdle. Just win a fucking football game, which I think we are good enough to do.

3) I'm not advocating playing Mayfield just to give him experience. I don't think you start to have that discussion until you think he can go into a game and give you as much or more than Tyrod. In other words, until you believe that he gives you at least as good a chance to win, and so move up the ladder of building a winning culture.

That being said, I still think you start Tyrod anyway, at least for a few games. If we go 0-3, the team is starting to look demoralized and the coaches think Mayfield is ready, then make a move.
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You said Manziel. Please edit!

Anyway, it’s statistically probable that teams will lose 2 games in a row. So at that point, we really need to bounce back in a must win situation. There is a cultural element to that, in my opinion.

As far as only starting Mayfield when he gives us a better chance to win, I don’t think it’s that simple. Maybe by his 4th start and beyond, our chances will be better, but until then they are worse. I still think this points to Tyrod starting and continuing to start, from that logical standpoint of outcomes that I mentioned.

Fuck this is going to be a fun year for the Browns.
 
buzzdog said:
And, there is the fact that this was a pre-ordained plan to get this team out of one of the worst ruts of all time. It was agreed to by everyone from Haslam to Dorsey to Jackson right on through to Taylor and Baker right from the start. How fucked up would it be if this organization jumped the rails on that plan right out of the gate, or before the time is right? I can hear it now, "same old Browns", no leadership, no plan, same as always. They have a plan, they're sticking to it, and now the same people who beat them up (rightfully) for being a mess want them to junk that plan? GMAFB.
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Sticking to a plan is warranted if there isn't overwhelming evidence that abandoning it may be the sensible thing to do.

Again, I think playing TT is likely the best course of action but a plan should be fluid. The organization should constantly be re-evaluating what they are doing and why....and if they see something that signals they should change course, IMO they shouldn't ignore it.

My biggest problem with the "stick to the plan" folks is that I really don't see the rationale in playing someone like TT if Baker is evaluated as being ready. I can't really make that determination, as I am not constantly working with or watching the offense but if at the end of camp, the prevailing thought is that Baker is ready to play, it's hard for me to stomach him sitting on the bench.

I'm not saying that BM sitting won't still lead to a good outcome, it likely will....I just don't see the point in punting game reps for the future QB if he is deemed as ready to play from week 1. If he's 95% ready, then sure, hold him back......but if our coaches sit there and say to themselves "what does Tyrod do better than Baker?" and they struggle to put anything down other than cliche coach speak ("leader", blah, blah), I'd be more worried if he were not playing, merely for the sake of sticking to a plan that was made before we saw him in a Browns helmet.
 
CBBI said:
Cowherd has to stick with his guns. He has been calling Darnold a future hall of famer for basically a year now.
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My choice of QBs from the draft was Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield [the rest of the draft], Allen. I was okay with Mayfield getting drafted, but obviously would have preferred Rosen and Darnold. Now... when I watched Mayfield take Cowherd apart when he went on his show, I thought to myself, "this kid is smart... and he's going to be fun to cheer for."

It's nice to see a guy completely destroy an argument, not by being loud and obnoxious, but by exposing the flaws in the argument, and then explaining all the other reasons beyond why it was wrong.
 
My view is that Taylor should start because the costs of doing so are small, and by avoiding rookie mistakes, my guess is we get closer to the playoffs. Additionally, if sitting Baker helps him learn one thing that he otherwise would not, it is probably worth it.

With that said, there does need to be consistency in this policy. Is Baker sitting because the Browns want him to learn this season? Great, then he should be third string behind Stanton.

Alternatively, is Baker sitting because Tyrod has outplayed him? If that is the case then the Browns have handled this poorly by dismissing any sort of QB competition.

I lean towards the latter. Thus, from that vantage point, while I agree with the Browns' decision, I think the way they have handled it is a little problematic. Not a huge problem, but if Tyrod is going to beat Baker, then let him beat Baker.

Baker is absolutely more talented, but Tyrod has been a pro for longer, and does not make mistakes. Tyrod has played better against 1st string defenses than Baker against 2nd string defenses. From all accounts Tyrod has also looked better in camp. If those are both true, and I think they are, then let Baker have 1st team reps, get outperformed, and make him QB2 behind Tyrod.
 
View: https://twitter.com/bakermayfield/status/1031889886184267776


View: https://twitter.com/PSDunderwear/status/1031889911530409984

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We have had some bad experiences with rookies who agree to advertising contracts:

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Why is it basketball ads make the player look cool but football ads make the player look like a huge douchebag?
 
If this guy brings winning football back back to cleveland he will be bigger than Bernie ever was
 
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