Bernie and Jane Sanders, under FBI investigation

[David.]

That speaks only to the breadth of your information gathering.

Or I don't really care about him and am not researching him.

What bad have you heard of him keys?

 

[Cratylus]

You're welcome to create all the strawmen you wish at my expense.

Still having trouble with basic logic I see.

 

[David.]

Still having trouble with basic logic I see.

Its like the thread was doing OK and someone introduced a "Trump supporters" dichotomy

 

[gourimoko]

"Helping"... is that what the left is calling forcible plunder nowadays?

You're talking about taxes?

Republicans and folks on the right have no problem taxing both you and I to prop up corporations and the military industrial complex. Folks on the left and the right had no problem with inflationary monetary policy that acted as an invisible tax on the population. And we rolled with a weak dollar policy, waged multiple wars we couldn't afford, and recklessly deregulated industries leading to a financial collapse that saw millions of people lose everything.

"Forcible plunder" isn't a term "on the left.." Not if we're paying attention.

"Can't help themselves"... is that what the left is calling people who make poor life decisions (like dropping out of school, doing drugs, getting pregnant outside of marriage, etc.) and then blame others when they find that their life is significantly harder than it needs to be?

It's not about blame... It's a society saying to itself "we will not tolerate destitution." And we damn sure won't tolerate destitution while spending $600bn on the DoD.

Republicans like to blame "poor life decisions" on all kinds of things... Guy gets forcibly retired from his corporation in waves of layoffs, no union, little fallback -- poor life decisions. Teachers can barely get by on their income, debate going on strike... "poor life decisions" ... Someone says "hey, lets have free college for all of our kids;" ... oh HELL no, that's too expensive. But "hey, let's bomb Iraq?" Absolutely, we can't afford NOT to!!

Just to be clear, @David. is less well-off than @gourimoko is. I guess he's perfectly within his rights to forcibly take money from @gourimoko , cuz you know, it's a noble and right thing to do, especially when the richies won't willingly fork over money on demand. Take it from the greedy bastards!

I'm totally fine with paying for the services described as part of the progressive agenda.

Programs like universe college, universal health care, adult retraining and education, daycare/childcare, infrastructure investments... These are things we as a society should be doing. I would much rather my tax dollars go towards programs like this, than hearing about the next GOP proposal to fleece the elderly, the poor, or the disabled.

And never have I EVER assumed or implied that those in need are all leeches. No doubt there are people in genuine need. Many people. And that's why as a TRULY noble person I donate my time, money, and efforts to several different charities and causes.

+1

What I won't do, however, is demand or require YOU to join in my efforts. That's the difference between my philosophy and yours, @AZ_ . I do through personal and private compassion what you seek to do through public coercion and compulsion.

There's not enough people like you @Cratylus... there never has been.. So while you can do your part, most others won't do theirs. And we end up with a society that's filled with sick, hungry, and destitute people.

Children that went without health care prior to (S)CHIP were 37.8% more likely to die than children who had insurance. Tens of thousands of people have gone sick in this country, and likely died as a result, due to lack of access to health care.

And what of the elderly who require Medicaid so that they can get hospice care without.. dying in a hospital or an emergency room, or a shelter..?

I mean, you and I both can be charitable people, but how many families are we supporting by paying their rent and food and electric bills until they can support themselves in this fucked up consumerist economy? Do we just say "welp, you made bad choices, oh well?" Look, there's things a government can do, through subsidization on a statewide or national-scale that you or I or a Church or a charity simply cannot hope to ever achieve.

So it boils down to a choice: do we choose, as a society, to expend some of our tax revenue towards the safety net -- or do we refuse, because.... ?

 

[gourimoko]

Honestly, I'm undecided on him. Genuinely. And I've heard almost exclusively bad.

Bad like what? I would think Sanders would be exactly your kind of politician.. He's populist; he's not a "PC" candidate; he's as "liberal" as it gets; he doesn't play "identity politics" like "hot sauce in my bag" Clinton...

His policies would help most Americans, regardless of who they are... He's non-interventionist in most cases, argues for strong American dollar, protectionism in many instances, opposes NAFTA/TPP...

Isn't that exactly what you're looking for?

 

[Cratylus]

Ah yes, the "taxes" excuse. So plunder is OK so long as it's a government entity run by Democrats that is doing the plundering. Gotcha.

 

[gourimoko]

Ah yes, the "taxes" excuse. So plunder is OK so long as it's a government entity run by Democrats that is doing the plundering. Gotcha.

(FWIW, I referenced the Democrats when talking about deregulation, and "right and left")

And just so we're clear, you aren't arguing that taxation in this country is theft, right?

You.. already know where that conversation goes, and you really don't need me to repeat what I know you already know.

 

[pr26]

Or I don't really care about him and am not researching him.

What bad have you heard of him keys?

C'mon, you have to be able to see the irony in the fact that you have been painting "progressives" on this board with big sweeping generalities regarding what they are doing or trying to do to this country....and then you admit you don't know much about the guy that most self-ascribed progressives actually wanted in office?

If you really don't know and aren't trolling, I urge you to watch his speech at Liberty University. Seriously, YouTube it. I think you might appreciate it even if you disagree with some of his ideas.

 

[Whittaker]

"Trump" dominates every thread.
He's found a way to gnaw at his opponent's brains.
He's like the genius Khan who put the Ceti eel in Chekov's ear.
It makes them swear, sweat and go off-topic.

 

[gourimoko]

"Trump" dominates every thread.
He's found a way to gnaw at his opponent's brains.
He's like the genius Khan who put the Ceti eel in Chekov's ear.
It makes them swear, sweat and go off-topic.

Trump is like Khan Noonien Singh? That's some whole other level Trump worship right there.. He's literally the fucking Ubermensch...?

You should be buried alive for that comment....

Burrriiieeddd Alliiiiiiivvee.....

Burrriiieeddd Alliiiiiiivvee.....

Burrriiieeddd Alliiiiiiivvee.....

 

[AZ_]

"Trump" dominates every thread.
He's found a way to gnaw at his opponent's brains.
He's like the genius Khan who put the Ceti eel in Chekov's ear.
It makes them swear, sweat and go off-topic.

He should make any American upset for what he's doing to the office.

Simply making "liberals" upset can't be your only victory here.

 

[Cratylus]

And just so we're clear, you aren't arguing that taxation in this country is theft, right?

I'm not really sure how to answer that.

Do you think that the government should be able to do anything it wants with the money that it takes from you in the form of taxes? Because I have a hunch that you don't. And if that's the case, I think we would both agree that certain types of taxation can be considered theft, especially if the money is being used for absurd "pork projects" or is being wasted through fraud and abuse within the system.

I mean, if the government could accomplish what it was constitutionally required to do with a 10% tax rate, but it was collecting 20% just because it felt the need to bloat itself and not police itself and waste and spend and spend and spend... yeah, I'd call that extra unnecessary taxation "theft".

 

[Tlyons]

"hot sauce in my bag" Clinton..

I wanted to choke that bitch out after she did that shit.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm not really sure how to answer that.

Do you think that the government should be able to do anything it wants with the money that it takes from you in the form of taxes?

No.

Because I have a hunch that you don't.

Of course.

And if that's the case, I think we would both agree that certain types of taxation can be considered theft, especially if the money is being used for absurd "pork projects" or is being wasted through fraud and abuse within the system.

Yes, we agree... Fraud or malfeasance would be a criminal misappropriation of tax revenue; and if Congress was complicit in an illegal form of taxation, then that would be theft, yes.

 

[Cratylus]

Yes, we agree... Fraud or malfeasance would be a criminal misappropriation of tax revenue; and if Congress was complicit in an illegal form of taxation, then that would be theft, yes.

So then really our disagreement, more or less, comes down to what we view as the proper role and function of the federal government. You believe that role to be larger than I do, and you are willing and eager to force me to help pay for your vision to become a reality. In your world, the "greater good" ultimately outweighs my individual right to my own property and the fruits of my labor. My view is to limit the involvement of the federal government to the least possible intrusive form. I almost always err on the side of less taxes and more personal freedom and responsibility.