Browns stadium thread: To dome or not to dome

[jjvors]

Funding seems like an issue for sure. I don't think people realize that Ohio's house and Senate Republicans want to eliminate the state income tax. So where is the state going to come up with the funds. Then you got a 25% of the voting block from the city of Cleveland for Cuyahoga county so that's hurdle to get any county portion passed for Brookpark. Then the population of Brookpark vs the city of Cleveland, Cleveland has ~20x the population of Brookpark. How much can Brookpark really kick in to fund the dome.

I really like the Green Bay method of funding the team: sell shares of the team to private citizens. Would you pay $100 to own part of the Browns, with a vote? That's how I'd fund the new stadium, whether Lakefront or Brook Park.

 

[BMAN]

I really like the Green Bay method of funding the team: sell shares of the team to private citizens. Would you pay $100 to own part of the Browns, with a vote? That's how I'd fund the new stadium, whether Lakefront or Brook Park.

There’s that, or I read that for Buffalo’s stadium the city gets a cut of all ticket and concession sales.

 

[southernflyer]

I really like the Green Bay method of funding the team: sell shares of the team to private citizens. Would you pay $100 to own part of the Browns, with a vote? That's how I'd fund the new stadium, whether Lakefront or Brook Park.

The Browns would sell off a percentage to private investors/equity that is simpler to buy back before divesting (and opening a larger percentage of their financial records) to the public. When Dick Jacobs did this with the Indians in '98 the issued stock was Class A common shares. The Class B preferred shares had 10,000x voting rights of the Class A and 99% of total voting rights. We never had a vote on the Schilling or Pedro trades.

The Indians' shares IPO was $15 in '98 and bought back at $23 in '04. Which gave around 7.3% interest on the investment which was better than a 5 year CD at a little over 5%.

There may be some REITs that invest in sports properties like the proposed stadium but I can't think of one. Buying into MSG Group is the closest. If you have even one share of the Packers' stock, you are unable to bet on NFL games.

 

[southernflyer]

Funding seems like an issue for sure. I don't think people realize that Ohio's house and Senate Republicans want to eliminate the state income tax. So where is the state going to come up with the funds. Then you got a 25% of the voting block from the city of Cleveland for Cuyahoga county so that's hurdle to get any county portion passed for Brookpark. Then the population of Brookpark vs the city of Cleveland, Cleveland has ~20x the population of Brookpark. How much can Brookpark really kick in to fund the dome.

City residents of Brook Park would most likely vote on a proposal of tax dollars of some sort. Building/utility ordinance waivers would be needed. Residents of the city of Cleveland wouldn't have a direct say unless Cuyahoga county voted to amend/extend the sin tax or additional county bonds were issued. The county executive/council members would vote.

As from someone in Florida can tell you, having no state income tax doesn't mean you aren't paying tolls/ taxes/ excise fees. When I drove to the airport daily I paid around $2k a year in tolls. New single family detached home construction < 2,000 sq. ft. in Orange county has impact fees of $24,287 ($431 fire/rescue, $624 law enforcement, $2,016 parks/recreation, $8,829 for schools and $12,387 for transportation).

 

[bigfoot5415]

I still dont understand how Wendy Park, the Flats, Post Office Lot or demolishing some buildings downtown arent being pushed.

 

[BMAN]

I still dont understand how Wendy Park, the Flats, Post Office Lot or demolishing some buildings downtown arent being pushed.

Haslams probably want full control so he can charge whatever he wants for parking and other amenities (which I’m not sure those would ever be built).

I don’t think Wendy Park would be big enough to have a stadium there. I’d rather not see more perfectly good buildings succumb to the wrecking ball, but that would have to involve eminent domain on tons of individually owned parcels. Post Office wouldn’t be a bad choice, but then the city loses 1000s of those jobs. In that case, I’d rather the Browns just move.

 

[inliner311]

City residents of Brook Park would most likely vote on a proposal of tax dollars of some sort. Building/utility ordinance waivers would be needed. Residents of the city of Cleveland wouldn't have a direct say unless Cuyahoga county voted to amend/extend the sin tax or additional county bonds were issued. The county executive/council members would vote.

As from someone in Florida can tell you, having no state income tax doesn't mean you aren't paying tolls/ taxes/ excise fees. When I drove to the airport daily I paid around $2k a year in tolls. New single family detached home construction < 2,000 sq. ft. in Orange county has impact fees of $24,287 ($431 fire/rescue, $624 law enforcement, $2,016 parks/recreation, $8,829 for schools and $12,387 for transportation).

A sin tax extension would need to be done because it runs to only 2035. Plus it wouldn't even be enough to cover either the renovation or the dome.

Also I do know there are still taxes with no income tax, I was going to add to it but I forgot. The point I was going to say that they will have to figure out how to fund the state government with other tax forms and that's going to limit what is available for the stadium. My guess is they are going to rely on money from gambling and marijuana to make up some of the short falls.

I also don't think support for stadiums for Cleveland and possibly Cincinnati is something that will get support for the whole state. Like with the pull tabs idea what does the rest of the state get from that.

 

[natedagg]

lots of people from Cleveland don’t live their any more. If I can fly out from visiting my parents after going to a Browns game, that would be tiddies.

RCF reunion at Browns game. LFG.

 

[inliner311]

I still dont understand how Wendy Park, the Flats, Post Office Lot or demolishing some buildings downtown arent being pushed.

The area that the Haslams wanted just east of downtown was a ton of parcels that were owned by all different people. At one point I was interested in buildings in that area and there were a ton of for sale sign but I could never reach anyone when trying to look at the places. It would have been a mess to buy up or even use imminent domain to get them all.

I think the post office and the area by the river next to it is worth pursuing. That would take a lot of government talks between the local Cleveland government and the federal government to get it done. It's really just a couple of parcels to piece together after the post office.

 

[inliner311]

lots of people from Cleveland don’t live their any more. If I can fly out from visiting my parents after going to a Browns game, that would be tiddies.

RCF reunion at Browns game. LFG.

Also a lot of eastsiders hate driving out to the airport and the west side in general. I could see a lot of eastsiders voting against the dome because they rather go downtown to watch the Browns even outside than drive or take the rta to the airport.

It's convenient for westsiders but it becomes a lot less convenient for eastsiders. I also think local Cleveland politicians will tell their voting base to vote no on the dome.

 

[BMAN]

Once again, why would we cater to people that don’t even live in the region?

 

[southernflyer]

The area that the Haslams wanted just east of downtown was a ton of parcels that were owned by all different people. At one point I was interested in buildings in that area and it was a ton of for sale sign but I could never reach anyone when trying to look at the places. It would have been a mess to buy up or even use imminent domain to get them all.

I think the post office and the area by the river next to it is worth pursuing. That would take a lot of government talks between the local Cleveland government and the federal government to get it done.

I think the Brook Park site would work well for a USPS facility. Less movement needed for air/overnight sorting next to the airport. Closer to Amazon facilities for the USPS last mile delivery contract as well. I would add a smaller centralized sorting center for Cleveland proper/east side operations would need to be built, although I'm not too familiar with NE Ohio USPS structure.

I live right over a county border. If I lived 500 feet east my mail would be sorted through Orlando and a 15 mile destination. Now it goes through Tampa, then Lakeland, then me which is in total an additional day of processing and 75 miles of transit.

 

[jmilo]

Once again, why would we cater to people that don’t even live in the region?

On the one hand, I get it. As someone who no longer lives in the region, the stadium should not be built with my wishes in mind.

On the other hand, NFL stadiums have been very successful at catering to rival fans or out of towners. LA and Vegas are two shining examples.

So, if you're the owner and you only care about profit, or you're the municipality and you only care about bringing in revenue, outside money can be appealing.

 

[inliner311]

I think the Brook Park site would work well for a USPS facility. Less movement needed for air/overnight sorting next to the airport. Closer to Amazon facilities for the USPS last mile delivery contract as well. I would add a smaller centralized sorting center for Cleveland proper/east side operations would need to be built, although I'm not too familiar with NE Ohio USPS structure.

I live right over a county border. If I lived 500 feet east my mail would be sorted through Orlando and a 15 mile destination. Now it goes through Tampa, then Lakeland, then me which is in total an additional day of processing and 75 miles of transit.

Exactly, USPS sorting doesn't need to be in the city anymore. Most the counties population lives outside of the city of Cleveland. Like 75% of the population USPS is serving is the suburbs.

 

[southernflyer]

Once again, why would we cater to people that don’t even live in the region?

If you are building a multi-use stadium and want to lure 30k medical sales reps for a convention, you need to be thinking about them just as much as the guy living in Parma who starts to tailgate at 9am every Sunday nine weeks a year for football.