Building the right way?

[The Process God]

no. Jon (not that I speak for Jon) and I and several others believe wholeheartedly in the draft. The argument was strictly regarding tanking to get there.

Cavs go into this years draft with 2 first round picks and 2 w2nd round picks. Traditionally you have teams that either dont want to spend money or development on a rookie or believe that you throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. This creates opportunities for the Cavs not just to take the pick thats handed to them but make trades to get the pick they want.

big difference.

You could argue that t grant moved sesions to ensure more loses but he still kept jamison and AV is coming back. That a strong indicator that Grant isnt relying on the cavs to be a bottom 5 team record wise to have a succesful build.

Cavs could still make the playoffs. If they do. They have a good shot at trading their way to the guy they want. Its not the deal breaker everyone tries to make it out. to be

This years draft is being bolstered by the front office making moves not ripping the teams guts out every week to ensure a bottom five finish

As has been stated before. both sides typically approve of Grants moves Just for different reasons.

Just because Jamison's still on the team doesn't mean that Grant isn't crying at home right now about it. :chuckles:

 

[FiveThous]

why would he do that when they are going to resign him next year?

 

[Jon]

Just because Jamison's still on the team doesn't mean that Grant isn't crying at home right now about it. :chuckles:

It's within Grant's power to waive Jamison or try to buy him out. He can ask Andy to sit out most of the rest of the season just to make sure he fully heals. So, judge him by his actions now that losing "trade value" is no longer an issue.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

It's going to be interesting to see how much our record changes without Sessions. I believe he was slightly more valuable to a win total than AJ is, but he still had numerous deficiencies. In the end, my take is this trade is not going to affect our record all that much. I've been a broken record on this as numerous people can't seem to grasp it even though it has continually played out...this team will continue to win games it should not and lose games it should win.
I also believe AJ will continue to play the same role he has all along. Him publicly coming out as being commited to this team for the season sent a message to the rest of the players. For that reason, Grant WILL NOT buy him out nor will he demand his PT get decreased. In the same light, Andy will come back and assume his role when he is ready. There will be no *nudge nudge* *wink wink* asking Andy to sit out if he is actually healthy enough to play. It sends a poor message to the players and would likely have Byron Scott questioning his employer. Agree with the premise or not, but it's obvious this is a principal the Cavs organization believes in. They know they are not a playoff team. They know that as AJ can "go off" for 30, he also plays poor defense and takes numerous ill advised shots on his way to all those points. They perfectly understand for every 10 AJ scores, Ryan Hollins, Luke Harangody, Casspi, etc give at least that many away with indescribeable offensive ineptitude.
This FO, agree with it or not, is performing a balancing act of sorts. They will not enter into some full blown RCF tank mode. Likewise, they also weren't about to become buyers, either. The team was constructed in such a way that, KI's emergence be damned, there was not going to be a playoff seed in 2012. But, there was enough here that the ability to win some games vs tough teams gives some confidence. Not even the most devout tanker could seriously argue there is definitely some benefit to KI and Gee seizing opportunities to show off some clutch gene in numerous 4th Q situations.
Now, balancing act in full swing, the fans will have to trust the FO knows what they are doing. They have to trust that the right amount of winning and losing will lead to both key development of young talent, as well as a top 12 pick. We have to have faith that this is the team that did pick KI, that did bring along Gee, did not draft Luke Jackson or Christian Eyenga or JJ Hickson. And if it all works a few years from now, some other team will be looking to this model as one to build off of. It's not OKC. It's not SAS. It's Cleveland. And if/when it works, hopefully the many devoted fans of this team will acknowledge it was done not necessarily the most popular way, but the right way. Whether we get the 3, 7, or 12 pick it will be up to the FO to nail it. Whether we use the extra 20 something pick or package it to move up, we have to trust the FO is doing all it can to make the team better. They will continue to explore all means of building this team. Good drafting, key trades of players and picks, and shrewd FA signings will all be employed to build this team into a winner. Of course the draft is the key. The draft is where you gain every single advantage under the CBA. You can get the most bang for your buck. You can utilize Bird Rights. The more successful you are at drafting, the less you have to rely on mostly overpaid FA signings. But, as SAS has proved over the last couple decades, utilizing all your resources will lead to a well balanced organization that can be built for sustained success. They haven't drafted before 20 in 15 years, yet have managed to always be in the thick of the playoff race at the same time, and it wasn't because they sign superstar FA's.

 

[Jon]

Ramon is a player who helps keep us exactly where we are. He's an average player on a bad team. How we replace his minutes will determine whether losing him ends up helping or hurting.

Gibson when given actual minutes to run the point (and in those rare occasions when he's healthy) has always done a very nice job for the team by initiating plays, spreading the floor, and doing his share of the scoring. Besides, Session's ability to get to the rim was mitigated by his desire to get to the rim - and his inconsistency in finishing when he gets there.

Kyrie continues to get more comfortable running the team, and should see the bulk of the minutes. So far this month he's averaged 19pts, 6.7 assists and 2.7 turnovers in 31 mpg.

 

[Green Lantern]

All in all Grant is going what he knew he had to do..build the team through the draft and accumilate assets..he is doing that..something it appears our former GM's couldn't do good enough.
Now the next phase will determine his cunning..how and what types of players he drafts and how he uses those picks and players to get the Cavs built the right way.

 

[ajz20]

Every loss gets us closer to a chance to draft either Davis, MKG or Barnes, and right now it appears Beal is moving up on the draft baords. The lunatics routing for us to go 500 the rest of the way (you know who you are) have to at this point admit we should be benching or buying out Jamison. Please give TT more minutes and let the young guys including Manny Harris take their lumps. I am confident that the delusional 8th seed chasers are starting to realize that the playoffs are a pipe dream! To think there were posters that wanted us to keep Sessions and make a trade for a vet to compete for the 8th seed is remarkable.

 

[The Process God]

It's going to be interesting to see how much our record changes without Sessions. I believe he was slightly more valuable to a win total than AJ is, but he still had numerous deficiencies. In the end, my take is this trade is not going to affect our record all that much. I've been a broken record on this as numerous people can't seem to grasp it even though it has continually played out...this team will continue to win games it should not and lose games it should win.
I also believe AJ will continue to play the same role he has all along. Him publicly coming out as being commited to this team for the season sent a message to the rest of the players. For that reason, Grant WILL NOT buy him out nor will he demand his PT get decreased. In the same light, Andy will come back and assume his role when he is ready. There will be no *nudge nudge* *wink wink* asking Andy to sit out if he is actually healthy enough to play. It sends a poor message to the players and would likely have Byron Scott questioning his employer. Agree with the premise or not, but it's obvious this is a principal the Cavs organization believes in. They know they are not a playoff team. They know that as AJ can "go off" for 30, he also plays poor defense and takes numerous ill advised shots on his way to all those points. They perfectly understand for every 10 AJ scores, Ryan Hollins, Luke Harangody, Casspi, etc give at least that many away with indescribeable offensive ineptitude.
This FO, agree with it or not, is performing a balancing act of sorts. They will not enter into some full blown RCF tank mode. Likewise, they also weren't about to become buyers, either. The team was constructed in such a way that, KI's emergence be damned, there was not going to be a playoff seed in 2012. But, there was enough here that the ability to win some games vs tough teams gives some confidence. Not even the most devout tanker could seriously argue there is definitely some benefit to KI and Gee seizing opportunities to show off some clutch gene in numerous 4th Q situations.
Now, balancing act in full swing, the fans will have to trust the FO knows what they are doing. They have to trust that the right amount of winning and losing will lead to both key development of young talent, as well as a top 12 pick. We have to have faith that this is the team that did pick KI, that did bring along Gee, did not draft Luke Jackson or Christian Eyenga or JJ Hickson. And if it all works a few years from now, some other team will be looking to this model as one to build off of. It's not OKC. It's not SAS. It's Cleveland. And if/when it works, hopefully the many devoted fans of this team will acknowledge it was done not necessarily the most popular way, but the right way. Whether we get the 3, 7, or 12 pick it will be up to the FO to nail it. Whether we use the extra 20 something pick or package it to move up, we have to trust the FO is doing all it can to make the team better. They will continue to explore all means of building this team. Good drafting, key trades of players and picks, and shrewd FA signings will all be employed to build this team into a winner. Of course the draft is the key. The draft is where you gain every single advantage under the CBA. You can get the most bang for your buck. You can utilize Bird Rights. The more successful you are at drafting, the less you have to rely on mostly overpaid FA signings. But, as SAS has proved over the last couple decades, utilizing all your resources will lead to a well balanced organization that can be built for sustained success. They haven't drafted before 20 in 15 years, yet have managed to always be in the thick of the playoff race at the same time, and it wasn't because they sign superstar FA's.

Two people held that organization up over those decades, and those people are David Robinson, one of the best centers of all time, and Tim Duncan, arguably the best PF of all time. Both were selected by number one draft selections. The Spurs had David Robinson injured for a full season, and they magically went from lottery team back to winning until this day. If it weren't for that injury, they would have likely won no championships. It was essentially tanking that got them 4 championships and kept them relevant for a decade before they won their first championship. Clearly without David Robinson, the Spurs were horrible. If you plan on Kyrie going down for a season and we somehow win the lottery and find the next Tim Duncan, then you lead the way.

Anyhow, regardless of what you want to call it. Luck, planning, those two overall 1sts made that team constant championship contenders and 4-time winners. Without either of them, they would highly likely have no championships. And here we are moving away from the top of the lottery. Oh, and don't forget that the Spurs have one of the best coaches of all time as well.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Two people held that organization up over those decades, and those people are David Robinson, one of the best centers of all time, and Tim Duncan, arguably the best PF of all time. Both were selected by number one draft selections. The Spurs had David Robinson injured for a full season, and they magically went from lottery team back to winning until this day. If it weren't for that injury, they would have likely won no championships. It was essentially tanking that got them 4 championships and kept them relevant for a decade before they won their first championship. Clearly without David Robinson, the Spurs were horrible. If you plan on Kyrie going down for a season and we somehow win the lottery and find the next Tim Duncan, then you lead the way.

Anyhow, regardless of what you want to call it. Luck, planning, those two overall 1sts made that team constant championship contenders and 4-time winners. Without either of them, they would highly likely have no championships. And here we are moving away from the top of the lottery. Oh, and don't forget that the Spurs have one of the best coaches of all time as well.

That's only half true. David Robinson retired in 2003 with 2 rings on his resume(the second one coming in his final year when he was a shell of his former self). They did not tank to get Tim Duncan. They lost arguably one of the best C's of all time with a season ending injury less than 10 games in and had to deal with the nagging career threatening injuries of one of their other best players, Sean Elliot. After Robinson retired, the Spurs had only one lotto player, Tim Duncan, that they had drafted on their entire roster. Every other pick after Duncan was 20 or higher. After The Admiral retired, the Spurs went on to win two more championships with a roster full of guys drafted late in the draft and veteran role players signed in FA.
It doesn't matter how they got that Duncan pick, just that they did indeed have it. We also have that #1 pick on our roster. We also have the fortune of having another guy, TT, who we found in that same lottery. This season, we will end up with yet another high pick. That's already more than at any time during the Spurs last two decades of Championship contending. The fact remains, the Spurs last two Titles came with just one lottery pick on their roster.
Yes, they have a great coach. I love Pop. But, Byron isn't chopped liver, either. He's done some very impressive things both as a player and a coach. You cannot discount the two titles after Robinson, and the fact they were achieved with less lottery picks than what we already have on our current roster. You cannot argue those titles came, in large part, due to great scouting that led to excellent late draft picks. You cannot argue they signed ZERO big name FA's during the run, either. Unless you want to make some kind of wild argument for Bowen or Horry or Kerr.
Point being, it's not the end of the world if we somehow get a 8 pick instead of 5. It's not the end of the world if we keep the LAL pick and use it to draft a guy in the 20's, in what should be a draft with better depth than we've seen in quite some time. It's the end of the world if our FO, unlike the SAS, fails to utilize these picks and transform them into viable NBA players. It's the end of the world if our FO feels the need to overpay for guys like Larry Hughes, instead of searching out glue guys like Bruce Bowen and proven winners like Robert Horry.
Would I absolutely love to get the #1 overall pick? Hell yes I would. Would I love to be able to sign a guy like James Harden? Sure as shit I would. But, I agree with our FO in the means to the end...and it is not some complete tank job. It's playing with the guys you got and expecting the best out of them and their HC, night in and night out. With our talent, their effort will not lead to some playoff series this year. But, it will allow them to look at each other and know they all gave their best. For anyone who has played at a high level of competitive team sports, that's all you want to know. If I have to come back to a bunch of guys next season who I think played half ass BS for a season, it affects my attitude. It affects team chemistry. It affects the coaching staff. It affects the league's perception of our team. These things are not as meaningless as the tankers of this fandom would have one believe. And it speaks to the beliefs of this organization that they also hold these beliefs to be true. They take pride in doing the honorable thing. You're a fan and can root for whatever you want to happen and it will not affect one damn thing. I'm just a bit more reassured in my stance, not because it's the popular one, but because it's the one backed by the Cavs organization.

 

[CleveRocks]

Our record will be somewhat influenced by what we do with the vets we acquired. As bad as Walton is, he is still an upgrade to the worst player on the floor (think Parker or Casspi), and Kapano more so. If we buy out Walton, and we don't play Jason, our record will suck the more, but it is arguably a good idea to play the younger guys, especially if we resign Manny.

I personally don't believe Ramons exit will impact us much. Gibson has struggled offensively, but is a better defender, and if you look at the losses it is defense that we suck at. If you cannot hold a team in the nineties, winning is a crap shoot on a good day.

All that aside, if we maintain our mid lottery position, our first pick has a lot of really good options, and I think we will be fine whichever is available. We are unlikely to sniff Davis or Drummond, but I think we will get a shot at either Beal, J. Lamb, or Sullinger , and I am fine with any of those. There are others I would not bitch about as well.

With the LA pick, I think there will also be some pretty good players available. Some mocks have fab melo, doron lamb and some other pretty good prospects. I have seen more than a few with players like Draymond Green or Orlando Johnson available in the second round...

In last years alleged weak draft, the pundits were saying there was no depth after the top 5. So far Kyrie is the only clear win, with Williams and Tristan still showing potential. But there are a number of late draft players earning minutes and making a impact, Being drafted at 7,8,9,15,17,22, and 25... So in this years draft, being deeper, I think we have the potential to pick up excellent talent even where we are...

 

[Jon]

Every loss gets us closer to a chance to draft either Davis, MKG or Barnes, and right now it appears Beal is moving up on the draft baords. The lunatics routing for us to go 500 the rest of the way (you know who you are) have to at this point admit we should be benching or buying out Jamison. Please give TT more minutes and let the young guys including Manny Harris take their lumps. I am confident that the delusional 8th seed chasers are starting to realize that the playoffs are a pipe dream! To think there were posters that wanted us to keep Sessions and make a trade for a vet to compete for the 8th seed is remarkable.

Is it even possible for you to make a point without attacking other posters?

Wish all you want, but there have still been ZERO signs of the Cavs wanting to bench or buyout Jamison.

 

[Pavlovic3Ball]

Good news for the people that want us in the lottery is that the Bucks are firing on all cylinders and the Knicks have won 2 straight after firing D'Antoni. A lot of games left, but we still have a shot of getting Davis no matter what the odds are

 

[Jon]

I personally don't believe Ramons exit will impact us much. Gibson has struggled offensively, but is a better defender, and if you look at the losses it is defense that we suck at. If you cannot hold a team in the nineties, winning is a crap shoot on a good day.

Gibson's offense has shown signs of coming around. With a chance to actually run the offense, it's possible he'll settle in.

With Sessions gone we've lost a guy who can create off the dribble, so depending how things go that should create an opening for Sloan & Harris.

The bottom line is that the Cavs are 23rd in both offensive and defensive efficiency. There's room for improvement in either category, but I agree that the first order of business is keeping the game close enough for Kyrie to take it over. So yes, defense and offensive rebounding is vital.

 

[The Process God]

Gibson's offense has shown signs of coming around. With a chance to actually run the offense, it's possible he'll settle in.

With Sessions gone we've lost a guy who can create off the dribble, so depending how things go that should create an opening for Sloan & Harris.

The bottom line is that the Cavs are 23rd in both offensive and defensive efficiency. There's room for improvement in either category, but I agree that the first order of business is keeping the game close enough for Kyrie to take it over. So yes, defense and offensive rebounding is vital.

To mediocrity and beyond! :chuckles:

 

[ajz20]

Does not mean it is the right move. I have nothing against other posters. However, chasing the 8 seed and wanting to keep Sessions was and is pure insanity. They tried to trade Jamison by the way, but could not work out a deal. Luckily Grant agrees with us. We are in our 1st year of rebuilding and have a bright future, because of our patience. Thank god we didn't foolishly trade and asset to try to add a veteran like some of you wanted.

Is it even possible for you to make a point without attacking other posters?

Wish all you want, but there have still been ZERO signs of the Cavs wanting to bench or buyout Jamison.