Building the right way?

[Riou]

How does the new salary cap rules affect building teams?

I've read here that the new salary cap rules make it very hard for even owners like Dan Gilbert who are willing to go over the cap, to go over it by very much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap

Tax levels from 2013–14
Amount over tax threshold Standard tax Repeat offender tax
$5 million or less $1.50 $2.50
$5 million to $10 million $1.75 $2.75
$10 million to $15 million $2.50 $3.50
$15 million to $25 million $3.25 $4.25

People have mentioned that OKC may be in trouble because they may not be able to sign their free agents without paying a ridiculous amount for going over the cap.

I know we are far from even worrying about it, but its something to discuss since I've been just lurking in the forums and refreshing to see if anything new is posted.

With Kyrie most likely being a max deal player and if we are lucky enough to get another max player. Would being lucky enough to find another max type player be the best for the team or would filling the team with defensive minded players who are proficient enough offensively, but do not command a big contract be best.

Miami has 3 max players, but did not have any choice but to sign whatever they could get to fill their team with. OKC has an up and coming big 3, but at least they have a choice to pay and keep their ridiculously young and talented team together, while having some great role players.

Great defensive players tend to be given the short end on contracts compared to great offensive players. Having two max players with some great defensive role players may be greater than having three max with whatever we can fill our roster with. This is all moot of course if Dan Gilbert is willing to pay whatever it takes to get the best team possible (which wouldn't surprise me).

Although everyone wants to build like OKC, we may also be able to try to emulate what the Bulls have done. They have built a defensive power house(minus Boozer) around Rose. I know teams in the playoffs can focus on shutting down the key player when there is only one go to guy, but I have this feeling that Kyrie is harder to shut down than Rose, due to his range.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how this would probably play out salary wise in the future assuming we hit on at least one of the future picks and having two max players? The fact that we have Kyrie is so great because we have a lot of options now, we could continue on just drafting the best defensive player with all our draft picks and we may end up like the Bulls, with a shot of that defensive player turning into an offensive beast as well.

Sorry for the long first thread, and sorry if this was a horrible thread go easy on me please.

 

[Jon]

I think you still draft the player who you think will have the most value, as you can always trade him for a cheaper player + picks. You can also hope that your players will be willing to sign for less than the max in order to keep the team together: certainly James/Wade/Bosh did that even before the new CBA.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

Cavs are typically younger. with less on court experience than any team in the NBA yet they have a winning record aganst sub 500 teams. Seems people are either undestimating the cavs talent or overestimating everyone elses.

Next year the cavs task will be dominating sub 500 teams and being copetitve against winning teams. whie they most likely will still be dominated by the top 4-6 teams they definately should be making forwards strides and thats if they stood pat this offseason.

 

[Douglar]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

Cavs are typically younger. with less on court experience than any team in the NBA yet they have a winning record aganst sub 500 teams. Seems people are either undestimating the cavs talent or overestimating everyone

I think a lot of this has less to do with talent and more to do with the Cavs still having some cohesion in the locker room and on the practice court. The other bottom of the barrel teams have just given up on playing in a system at all. While I want a good draft pick, I don't want the locker room to go sour. That can really set back player development.

 

[TitleTown]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

I think a lot of this has less to do with talent and more to do with the Cavs still having some cohesion in the locker room and on the practice court. The other bottom of the barrel teams have just given up on playing in a system at all. While I want a good draft pick, I don't want the locker room to go sour. That can really set back player development.

Well said!

We can draft all the talent in the world, but you can't draft a winning culture, a good coach, or a solid team environment.

 

[Rich]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

Cavs are typically younger. with less on court experience than any team in the NBA yet they have a winning record aganst sub 500 teams. Seems people are either undestimating the cavs talent or overestimating everyone elses.
Next year the cavs task will be dominating sub 500 teams and being copetitve against winning teams. whie they most likely will still be dominated by the top 4-6 teams they definately should be making forwards strides and thats if they stood pat this offseason.

Maybe you missed it, but while you've been away the Cavs have managed to put up a sexy 20-38 record. There is no underestimating going on, especially when their three best players are now sitting out.

Now, if you'd like to argue a team throwing out on the court guys like Donald Sloan, Harangody, Samardo Samuels, Luke Walton, and Lester Hudson, be my guest.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

Maybe you missed it, but while you've been away the Cavs have managed to put up a sexy 20-38 record. There is no underestimating going on, especially when their three best players are now sitting out.

Now, if you'd like to argue a team throwing out on the court guys like Donald Sloan, Harangody, Samardo Samuels, Luke Walton, and Lester Hudson, be my guest.

What I saw was a team in transition making alot of adjustments with the roster and losing two fifths of major contributors from the bench around the all star break.

I saw a nine game losing streak where the team wasnt attacking the perimeter defense

20-38 is an improvement from last year. The cavs are going in the right direction.

I believe I projected them at 25-30 wins this season. with 8 games remainings. that isnt likely to happen but the team has improved their team defense and the offense is getting more consistent.

Most of all this team will have their young players getting som e extra time in summer league. a full off season workout with the team and a full preseason to improve.

The Cavs are just finishing year 2 of their new build. Year 1 was a transition year. Year two is where you evaluate and establish what you want to do on the court.

the cavs have been copetive and have a winning record against sub 500 teams. im not sure why their overall 20-38 record would matter. just look at charlotte. they have 9 guys on their roster 25 or under. Cavs do as well. Cavs are significantly better than charlotte.

The cavs arent looking for one player. their goal is to have a team of players that no matter who is out there plays winning basketball. to do that you need solid guys 4-12.

The cavs need to find those guys as well. guys who can produce at a low salary is even better.

The cavs scouting crew has done an amazing job at scouting talent and plugging in guys that fit on this team. Scott is doing an even better forcing players to work on their weaknesses.

The problem alot of posters have is comparing this team to the prior era final product.

The Cavs are going through a fast turnaround and the front office is making the moves they need to to keep pace.

Even the great OKc only won 23 games with Westbrook, Durant and green. throw in ibaka and ahrden that year and they wouldnt of been much better.

selfosha and kristic played as much a part of their 50 win turn around emerging as starters for that team.

 

[Pioneer10]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

I never understood why we had to spend so much time in school learning good punctuation, grammar, and capitalization till now.

 

[wuck]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

The Cavs have been competitive and have a winning record against sub 500 teams. I'm not sure why their overall 20-38 record would matter.

Their 20-38 record matters because while it suggests that the Cavs have improved from last year, they haven't improved as much as your rosy-colored posts suggest. You're now posting about the Cavs and how much they have grown after a 6-game stretch where they have beaten WAS, TOR, and CHA (and lost to the Nets). Pretty bad teams, to put it mildly. You completely neglected the part about the Cavs going 4-18 before their recent stretch. So, yes, it's difficult to believe your assessment.

I like that the Cavs have started playing hard again, how they have looked like a team (unlike WAS and CHA, both completely inept, and TOR, which was really bad without solid PG play that night), and how they haven't tuned Byron out. That last point may be the most important. It seemed like he would lose the team, but he clearly hasn't.

The Cavs currently have the fewest first-round picks of any teams and the most players who have spent time in the D-League. I doubt that will be true in two years (and it may not be true next year).

But to talk now about how the Cavs are amazing talent evaluators or how many of their current roster will be growing and contributing with the team is premature. They didn't even feel the need to sign Hudson for the rest of the season yet (still evaluating him, and keeping that roster space flexible). They planned to send Harangody back down to the CBA playoffs. Is Sloan the guy who has shot 38% over the previous 24 games or the one who shot well tonight? Samuels shoots poorly for a big man. Many have shown signs of good play but also plenty of signs of infuriatingly inconsistent play. Hudson has a habit of turning the ball over. Etc.

Sure, it's possible that some of these guys will make contributions in the future, but to characterize the bottom of the Cavs roster as some fantastic wellspring of talent -- that's just going too far. I think a number will get more chances going forward, and some might make something of it. But if the Cavs make smart draft picks and roster moves over the next few years, my guess would be that hopefully at least 1, maybe 2, and possibly (a very remote possibility) 3 of the players you mentioned (Casspi, Hudson, Sloan, Harangody, Gee, Samuels, Walton, Harris, Erden) will be contributing in some useful way to the Cavaliers. Are you actually expecting more than 1 or 2 of them to be an important part of the Cavs future plans in, let's say, 2013-2014? Which ones?

You used the examples of Krstic and Sefalosha, but both of them were first-round picks. They don't compare to D-League pickups, and the Cavs are going to be integrating a number of first-round picks over the next few years, which is going to make it harder for the undrafted guys to be part of the big picture.

 

[czvo]

I like the "glass half full" approach, but the cold hard truth is that this team sucks. Kyrie, Alonzo, and Tristan are the only real keepers. Jamison and Parker are on the verge of retirement. No one else is worthy of a roster spot. Varejao should be traded during the offseason.

Fact of the matter is this team is bad, and it is likely to stay bad next year.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

Their 20-38 record matters because while it suggests that the Cavs have improved from last year, they haven't improved as much as your rosy-colored posts suggest. You're now posting about the Cavs and how much they have grown after a 6-game stretch where they have beaten WAS, TOR, and CHA (and lost to the Nets). Pretty bad teams, to put it mildly. You completely neglected the part about the Cavs going 4-18 before their recent stretch. So, yes, it's difficult to believe your assessment.

I like that the Cavs have started playing hard again, how they have looked like a team (unlike WAS and CHA, both completely inept, and TOR, which was really bad without solid PG play that night), and how they haven't tuned Byron out. That last point may be the most important. It seemed like he would lose the team, but he clearly hasn't.

But to talk now about how the Cavs are amazing talent evaluators or how many of their current roster will be growing and contributing with the team is premature. They didn't even feel the need to sign Hudson for the rest of the season yet (still evaluating him, and keeping that roster space flexible). They planned to send Harangody back down to the CBA playoffs. Is Sloan the guy who has shot 38% over the previous 24 games or the one who shot well tonight? Samuels shoots poorly for a big man. Many have shown signs of good play but also plenty signs of infuriatingly inconsistent play. Hudson has a habit of turning the ball over. Etc.

Sure, it's possible that some of these guys will make contributions in the future, but to characterize the bottom of the Cavs roster as some fantastic wellspring of talent -- that's just going too far. I think a number will get more chances going forward, and some might make something of it. But if the Cavs make smart draft picks and roster moves over the next few years, my guess would be that hopefully at least 1, maybe 2, and possibly (a very remote possibility) 3 of the players you mentioned (Casspi, Hudson, Sloan, Harangody, Gee, Samuels, Walton, Harris, Erden) will be contributing in some useful way to the Cavaliers. Are you actually expecting more than 1 or 2 of them to be an important part of the Cavs future plans in, let's say, 2013-2014? Which ones?

You used the examples of Krstic and Sefalosha, but both of them were first-round picks. They don't compare to D-League pickups, and the Cavs are going to be integrating a number of first-round picks over the next few years, which is going to make it harder for the undrafted guys to be part of the big picture.

Cavs had have 2 draft picks in the last two drafts. They look to add two more. this year.

Cavs lost sessions to trade and Gibson to injuries. They also put Thompson in the starting lineup which leads to the team losing three players out of their bench rotation thats averages 20 minutes a game they would of had a hard time competing regardless of who they brought in.

The Cavs are bringing in the right players and they are brinign in guys who can potentially be there for awhile. signing lester to a 2nd ten day contract was the prudent financial move. It certianly wasnt a sign of a lack of confidence.

top 15 picks find themselves a starting job about 50% 16-30 way less. after the top 18 or so picks the rest are marginally better than 2nd round talent.

Its not important to have 1st round picks littered on your bench if you can find equivalent talent elsewhere.

Small and mid market teams have wised up. why spend year after developing fringe young talent so they can go to the major markets as soon as they learn how to play.. instead let the d league or world leagues develop those guys and take a look at them when they are ready.

the undrafted guys are already part of the big picture. They set the bar and allow the team develop as they find that next piece.

 

[Jon]

Re: Let's ride.......... RCF !!!

the undrafted guys are already part of the big picture. They set the bar and allow the team develop as they find that next piece.

Dunno.

Even Gee is a questionable part of our future depending what sort of offers he gets this off-season and who we draft. There's a chance some of these guys will play a part in the team's future, but there's also a chance they'll all be gone to make room for draft-picks, free-agent signings, or just because they've signed on to another team with minutes to throw at them.

Ultimately every young player wants the same thing: a chance to prove themselves as a legit starter and show they're deserving of a multi-year guaranteed contract. So these guys are motivated and they're playing hard, but you simply don't lose a lot of sleep over a bunch of guys who can't shoot better than 40% from the field.

 

[Bizkitfan]

An article I found about the Cavs.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/where-does-cleveland-go-from-here

This an article that I found. It's a good read. I think so anyways.

 

[czvo]

Re: An article I found about the Cavs.

Andre Drummond, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, or Bradley Beal would be solid additions, but in Cleveland, no one would generate more excitement than Ohio State star Jared Sullinger.

This author and I have much different definitions of the word "excitement."

 

[TitleTown]

Re: An article I found about the Cavs.

This author and I have much different definitions of the word "excitement."

I don't want that kid anywhere near this team. He's a short marshmallow who has already peaked.