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Cavs Trade w/ Memphis (Speights, Selby, Ellington, and #1 pick for Leuer)

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Grade the Trade for the Cavs

  • A+

    Votes: 211 67.0%
  • A

    Votes: 88 27.9%
  • B

    Votes: 15 4.8%
  • C

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • D

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • F

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    315
  • Poll closed .
Nobody will benefit more from a low post scoring threat than Livingston. He is very good passing into the post in the half court and moving without the ball. He can distribute to stronger scorers in the second line rather than being an undersized swingman who can barely shoot.

Tristan has really benefited from Livingston on the 2nd unit as all Livingston does it get it to guys in better position to score. Speights is another guy who seems to really fluorish playing with a pass first pg. It really adds some balance to the team since Kyrie takes so many shots. Seeing the team play so well immediately really shows how the team really needed a couple of guys who knew how to play in the 4th.
 
Unfortunately, the Cavs can't either......

tristan is probably playing at that level the last month or so, it's just taking a while to pull his average for the season up
 
We will find out Grant's strategy in the next month. If Spieghts continues to play the way he's playing, he's going to opt out at the end of the year and get more than $4 million. The issue that Grant has is whether he wants to keep cap space available to make a pitch to LeBron. Doing the math, we just about have enough space for a max deal to avoid a sign and trade or losing V to create cap room. The roster would be for Irving, Waiters, TT, V, Zeller, Gee, 4 first round picks (our top-5 and 3 in mid teens - assuming LA pick, Sac pick and our pick next year) that is solid 10 plus a max deal player without Speights. Even though there is less than a 25% chance LeBron would come here, we have availability to lure another top free-agent here under a max deal. So, in this option, we have our core, plus max FA, plus Memphis, Miami firsts plus Speights asset via trading him now.

Now, if we sign Speights to FA contract next year, even if it is $6 million, we need to cut V to have enough space to sign someone or do a sign and trade for that star player. Unfortunately, the trade will not be for two firsts like we got for Miami as they had cap room and thus had leverage. They only wanted the extra year and higher salary increase via sign-n-trade rather than sign Bosh and LeBron out right. So, who do we trade? Waiters/TT and a few picks if a team had us by the balls due to wasting our cap room? This assumes Waiters/TT develop into great players worthy of trade, far greater value than Speights. So, here we are left with Speights, FA, Core less TT, Weiters or V and probably less the Miami and Memphis picks.

For me, to get a FA worthy of max deal, whether it is LeBron or others is worth it. We will already have a solid core plus some bench with 3-4 more picks. The difference in Ell or Speights versus what you get off scrap heap is far less than the difference in what you need to give up in sign-n-trade without leverage. Even if there's less than 50% chance it works, that Memphis pick is more valuable than Speights. Remember, Toronto got back their 5th pick for Bosh and they had no leverage to ask for more. Who do you think Miami will ask for to let LeBron walk? Keep our leverage, it is well worth it versus 6th man in Speights. Yes, we may give up two picks in any Sign-n-trade like Miami gave us. But, if we have to give up TT/Weiters plus more picks, is he worth it, just to keep Speights?

Get your key players in, then worry about how to fill around them. If you think, Speights is better than V, then fine keep him and prepare to lose V. But, if we draft Noel, Zeller, or Len in this draft, TT, V, Zeller and pick leave little room for Speights.

Whoa there, slow down. You are making a LOT of assumptions here. Chris Grant has a lot more flexibility than you've described. First let's start with the basics...the cap space in 2014. Right now we have Kyrie, Waiters, TT, Gee, Zeller, Andy (team option), 2013 first round pick (Cle), 2013 first round pick (Lakers/Miami), 2014 first round pick (Cle), and 2014 first round pick (Sac). Overall that adds up to roughly 41.75 million for 10 players. A 10 year max free agent on top of that would be $14 million. If the cap space remains around $58 million, we'd still be roughly $4 million UNDER the cap. We don't need to cut Andy, and we're definitely not doing a sign and trade with anyone, because we're the ones with leverage. Because he's our player, we can even go a little bit over the salary cap to sign Speights and it wouldn't be a big deal. That brings up another point. If he's still productive, I don't see any scenario where we just let Andy walk away for nothing. If he's healthy and productive, I still think we trade him next year or in the 2014 season. We're also not going to have an entire bench of 2013/2014 draft picks. Don't be surprised if they are used as assets as part of a larger deal for an impact player. The Cavs do have a lot of flexibility and options with regard to the roster, but a scenario where we have to give up TT or Waiters in a sign and trade because we have Speights on the roster is laughable.
 
Right now we have Kyrie, Waiters, TT, Gee, Zeller, Andy (team option), 2013 first round pick (Cle), 2013 first round pick (Lakers/Miami), 2014 first round pick (Cle), and 2014 first round pick (Sac). Overall that adds up to roughly 41.75 million for 10 players. A 10 year max free agent on top of that would be $14 million.

It isn't a team option for Varejao in 2014-15. It's a partial guarantee of $4 Mil. A 10 year vet max salary is going to be close to $20 MIl.

There's no way to add a $6Mil free agent, a max free agent, and keep all the existing players and draft picks.

Here's my math--

Player</SPAN>2014-15</SPAN>
Anderson Varejao</SPAN>$9,704,595 </SPAN>
Kyrie Irving</SPAN>$7,070,730 </SPAN>
Tristan Thompson</SPAN>$5,138,430 </SPAN>
Dion Waiters</SPAN>$4,062,000 </SPAN>
Alonzo Gee</SPAN>$3,000,000 </SPAN>
Tyler Zeller</SPAN>$1,703,760 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #4)</SPAN>$3,894,240 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,633,440 </SPAN>
Cavs 2014 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,563,120 </SPAN>
Roster hold for Spot 11</SPAN>$500,000 </SPAN>
10 Year Max Free Agent</SPAN>$19,795,620 </SPAN>
Total</SPAN>$58,065,935 </SPAN>
Salary Cap</SPAN>$60,044,000 </SPAN>
Cap Space for Spot 12</SPAN>$1,978,065 </SPAN>

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Whoa there, slow down. You are making a LOT of assumptions here. Chris Grant has a lot more flexibility than you've described. First let's start with the basics...the cap space in 2014. Right now we have Kyrie, Waiters, TT, Gee, Zeller, Andy (team option), 2013 first round pick (Cle), 2013 first round pick (Lakers/Miami), 2014 first round pick (Cle), and 2014 first round pick (Sac). Overall that adds up to roughly 41.75 million for 10 players. A 10 year max free agent on top of that would be $14 million. If the cap space remains around $58 million, we'd still be roughly $4 million UNDER the cap. We don't need to cut Andy, and we're definitely not doing a sign and trade with anyone, because we're the ones with leverage. Because he's our player, we can even go a little bit over the salary cap to sign Speights and it wouldn't be a big deal. That brings up another point. If he's still productive, I don't see any scenario where we just let Andy walk away for nothing. If he's healthy and productive, I still think we trade him next year or in the 2014 season. We're also not going to have an entire bench of 2013/2014 draft picks. Don't be surprised if they are used as assets as part of a larger deal for an impact player. The Cavs do have a lot of flexibility and options with regard to the roster, but a scenario where we have to give up TT or Waiters in a sign and trade because we have Speights on the roster is laughable.

I agree with most of your numbers as they are what I used. But, I don't know where you got your number for a 10 year free agent max as it is $19.1 this year, so that is why I assumed $20 million making us $2 million over cap. See
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2012/07/the-nbas-new-maximum-salary.html

The $14 million number for a 10-year player was the original number years ago, indexed over the years. I assumed cap would go up to $60 or $61 million keeping us just at it with max deal for LeBron or other SF vet. And, agree that we would not want to give up TT or Waiters, reason I pointed out Grant will show his hand soon if he really is holding a space for LeBron to keep room and thus trading Speights for another asset.

The one thing I don't get in your argument: I agree we don't want a total team of rookies, so why trade V for something only to bring back vets (I assume you mean younger vets .. Less injury prone). In my scenario it would be 10-year max vet to pair with Irving, V, Gee and TT plus 1 or 2 more roster spaces for the over hill vets that play the role of 3-point specialist or hack-a-Shaq minute/foul eater. What am I missing?
 
Thanks Douglar ... Your posted was just ahead of mine with a better explanation.

Just two points to summarize ..

1) if you trade Speights now for an asset, you can always trade that asset back or a similar back for a similar player as Speights if you can't sign a 10-year vet or sign a 7-9 year vet instead for $3 million less in he next offseason.

2) And as Shoes22 did point out which was my point, we are not going over the cap for role player, because anyone you sign is not worth what you got to give up in Sign-n-trade for your star player. Keep that $20 million cap all for your star player to colead with Irving then fill around them with assets you accumulated.

If you crap out of that max free agent, so be it. At least you tried the option that preserves everything else we built so far. You the move to option #2 -- trade for someone like Love and hope he stays or #3 -- be patient and let TT/Waiters develop.
 
It isn't a team option for Varejao in 2014-15. It's a partial guarantee of $4 Mil. A 10 year vet max salary is going to be close to $20 MIl.

There's no way to add a $6Mil free agent, a max free agent, and keep all the existing players and draft picks.

Here's my math--

Player</SPAN>2014-15</SPAN>
Anderson Varejao</SPAN>$9,704,595 </SPAN>
Kyrie Irving</SPAN>$7,070,730 </SPAN>
Tristan Thompson</SPAN>$5,138,430 </SPAN>
Dion Waiters</SPAN>$4,062,000 </SPAN>
Alonzo Gee</SPAN>$3,000,000 </SPAN>
Tyler Zeller</SPAN>$1,703,760 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #4)</SPAN>$3,894,240 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,633,440 </SPAN>
Cavs 2014 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,563,120 </SPAN>
Roster hold for Spot 11</SPAN>$500,000 </SPAN>
10 Year Max Free Agent</SPAN>$19,795,620 </SPAN>
Total</SPAN>$58,065,935 </SPAN>
Salary Cap</SPAN>$60,044,000 </SPAN>
Cap Space for Spot 12</SPAN>$1,978,065 </SPAN>

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Good work on the table, it does need one small update. The max salary for a 10 year player who earned $19,067,500 in 13-14 is $20,020,875 (i.e. 105% of his prior salary).
 
Theoretically dealing Speights is simply because this is a young team that is still rebuilding and acquiring assets. I'd prefer to hang onto him just because of the big rotation we'd have without him at this point. Tristan has been killing it and Zeller has shown occasional flashes, but the drop off is significant after those two. But, I'm not in love with the guy after a couple games. My eyes are on the bigger prize and in the longer term. I'd just like to keep him around because we are one Tristan injury from having pretty much zero worthwhile big men without Speights.

The trade Grant made to get Speights here already accomplished what it set out to do. We took on salary, but none of it is long term, for a future draft pick. If Grant can do anything else with those players to get any additional assets, it's all just gravy.

When Grant traded for Speights, both parties had to know that this could be a short term reunion. If Speights tears it up over the next couple weeks, you know he is going to opt out and become a free agent. He will command more money than the Cavs will likely pay him and ultimately leave as a free agent. So in the meantime, now, he can audition for his big payday now. And if Grant can flip him, then awesome. If he can't, it's not the end of the world. If the guy opts out, it means the Cavs won't be on the hook for his $4.5M salary next year. Which means that the Cavs will have paid around $7M for an almost assured lottery pick ($4.2M for Speights, $2.1 for Ellington, and $800K for Selby). If the Cavs cut Selby this summer, they will have none of the players they traded for. But they still have the pick and all of that cap space back.

They've already won big regardless of what happens with Speights.

The situation with Sessions is similar, but not identical. Their contract situations were similar, yes. But Sessions had been here longer and had more of a body of work with the Cavaliers. More importantly though, Sessions was playing at the position of our franchise cornerstone and had no future here regardless if we would have paid him. To me, the only long term big on this team is Tristan, but he still has a long way to go. Andy doesn't count because he's in a suit for half of the year, every year. Zeller is a capable backup, but also has a long way to go. So, the Cavs COULD use the guy if he does contribute to the team and not just fill up the box score.
 
It isn't a team option for Varejao in 2014-15. It's a partial guarantee of $4 Mil. A 10 year vet max salary is going to be close to $20 MIl.

There's no way to add a $6Mil free agent, a max free agent, and keep all the existing players and draft picks.

Here's my math--

Player</SPAN>2014-15</SPAN>
Anderson Varejao</SPAN>$9,704,595 </SPAN>
Kyrie Irving</SPAN>$7,070,730 </SPAN>
Tristan Thompson</SPAN>$5,138,430 </SPAN>
Dion Waiters</SPAN>$4,062,000 </SPAN>
Alonzo Gee</SPAN>$3,000,000 </SPAN>
Tyler Zeller</SPAN>$1,703,760 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #4)</SPAN>$3,894,240 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,633,440 </SPAN>
Cavs 2014 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,563,120 </SPAN>
Roster hold for Spot 11</SPAN>$500,000 </SPAN>
10 Year Max Free Agent</SPAN>$19,795,620 </SPAN>
Total</SPAN>$58,065,935 </SPAN>
Salary Cap</SPAN>$60,044,000 </SPAN>
Cap Space for Spot 12</SPAN>$1,978,065 </SPAN>

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While I like what your point out, there is a flaw. How can we assume, that Cleveland (a small market) would not want to keep a little more flexibility being in the last year of Kyrie & Tristans contract? If Kyrie makes 2 ASGs before his contract is up, he qualifies for the Derrick Rose rule, which allows him to get 30% of the cap in year 1 of his new deal. Assuming the cap is indeeed at $60 mil, that makes Kyrie earn $18 mil in 2015. That alone will jump your total to close to $70 mil in 2015. That does not factor in resigning TT, or any other roster raises. lastly, if we indeed make a move for LBJ, he will going into year 12 of his career, thus yielding even more mney towards his max deal.
 
Why wouldn't he give us a deal like he did Miami? If he wants to right his wrongs and be on a championship caliber team, I think he'll be flexible.
 
Why wouldn't he give us a deal like he did Miami? If he wants to right his wrongs and be on a championship caliber team, I think he'll be flexible.

Thats one of the biggest keys. LBJ does not need cash from the NBA. However, there is a greater tax here than in MIA. So he will be making even less here. Still not sure that factors in too much. He has a goal to be a billionaire athlete, but he need to repair his brand, strengthen it, and cement a legacy. All of which can be done by winning a ring in CLE.
 
While I like what your point out, there is a flaw. How can we assume, that Cleveland (a small market) would not want to keep a little more flexibility being in the last year of Kyrie & Tristans contract? If Kyrie makes 2 ASGs before his contract is up, he qualifies for the Derrick Rose rule, which allows him to get 30% of the cap in year 1 of his new deal. Assuming the cap is indeeed at $60 mil, that makes Kyrie earn $18 mil in 2015. That alone will jump your total to close to $70 mil in 2015. That does not factor in resigning TT, or any other roster raises. lastly, if we indeed make a move for LBJ, he will going into year 12 of his career, thus yielding even more mney towards his max deal.

There are too many what-ifs right now to consider 3-4 years down the line. You like to have three max players like OKC tried to do and kind of did with Ibaka. For now, only Irving is close to being a guarantee max player. You have room between the salary-cap and luxury tax to play with. If waiters or TT get to that point, I assume you will let V go. Yet this league is about having at least two stars at max value. You hope you have the best max players versus players close to it being very good that just want to be paid like it. And if you get caught with three or four true max players, you just trade them like OKC did and get more assets to find the next player and pay them little for the first four years.
 
Lebron will be a billionaire, mark it down, he'll play until he's 40 making more than 10 million a year per on avg. That's 200 million right there, not to mention all the advertising and other business ventures. Also, if he came to Cleveland, rebuilt his image, he'll continually command major dollars from Nike when his advertising deals expire especially if he has a marketable big 3 in Cleveland (Kyrie, Lebron, Future Star accquired).
 
It isn't a team option for Varejao in 2014-15. It's a partial guarantee of $4 Mil. A 10 year vet max salary is going to be close to $20 MIl.

There's no way to add a $6Mil free agent, a max free agent, and keep all the existing players and draft picks.

Here's my math--

Player</SPAN>2014-15</SPAN>
Anderson Varejao</SPAN>$9,704,595 </SPAN>
Kyrie Irving</SPAN>$7,070,730 </SPAN>
Tristan Thompson</SPAN>$5,138,430 </SPAN>
Dion Waiters</SPAN>$4,062,000 </SPAN>
Alonzo Gee</SPAN>$3,000,000 </SPAN>
Tyler Zeller</SPAN>$1,703,760 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #4)</SPAN>$3,894,240 </SPAN>
Cavs 2013 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,633,440 </SPAN>
Cavs 2014 Pick (est #17)</SPAN>$1,563,120 </SPAN>
Roster hold for Spot 11</SPAN>$500,000 </SPAN>
10 Year Max Free Agent</SPAN>$19,795,620 </SPAN>
Total</SPAN>$58,065,935 </SPAN>
Salary Cap</SPAN>$60,044,000 </SPAN>
Cap Space for Spot 12</SPAN>$1,978,065 </SPAN>

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I think that if the goal is for the team is to make solid progress next year and try to make the playoffs, on the grounds that this would make them a more attractive free agent destination, it may be advantageous for the Cavs NOT to trade Speights and then for him to exercise his $4.5M option. He gives the team a viable big who pairs reasonably well with both TT and Zeller AND is on a short term contract. If Speights opts out (or is traded), the Cavs would have to find another similar big in order to be competitive and I don't think you will find a decent player willing to sign a one year contract, even if you overpay a bit. I mean, maybe if they drafted a big in the top 5, that would be enough, but you can't rely on rookies for much...And, yes, I haven't forgotten Varejao...

I think the math also makes it more likely that the Cavs exercise CJ Miles' option...

Anyway, I will be very interested in seeing what the Cavs do this off season. Of course, if they can pull off another small salary dump trade using their remaining cap space, it might provide them with a serviceable big, though probably not one as good as Speights. They might also sign Oden, who is one player who actually makes Varejao seem durable.

Now of course if the Cavs really don't care what their record is again next year, this is all moot. Trade Speights for whatever you can get and an expiring, or encourage him to walk in the off-season, whatever. But I don't think this will be their approach.
 
I think that if the goal is for the team is to make solid progress next year and try to make the playoffs, on the grounds that this would make them a more attractive free agent destination, it may be advantageous for the Cavs NOT to trade Speights and then for him to exercise his $4.5M option. He gives the team a viable big who pairs reasonably well with both TT and Zeller AND is on a short term contract. If Speights opts out (or is traded), the Cavs would have to find another similar big in order to be competitive and I don't think you will find a decent player willing to sign a one year contract, even if you overpay a bit. I mean, maybe if they drafted a big in the top 5, that would be enough, but you can't rely on rookies for much...And, yes, I haven't forgotten Varejao...

I think the math also makes it more likely that the Cavs exercise CJ Miles' option...

Anyway, I will be very interested in seeing what the Cavs do this off season. Of course, if they can pull off another small salary dump trade using their remaining cap space, it might provide them with a serviceable big, though probably not one as good as Speights. They might also sign Oden, who is one player who actually makes Varejao seem durable.

Now of course if the Cavs really don't care what their record is again next year, this is all moot. Trade Speights for whatever you can get and an expiring, or encourage him to walk in the off-season, whatever. But I don't think this will be their approach.

Except Speights most likely will exercise his option and CJ Miles may be murdered by any number of posters on this board if his option was picked up.
 
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