Chief Wahoo Discussion

[BimboColesHair]

I must have missed the era where Celtics were nearly wiped out and displaced while enduring consistent racism over the last three centuries.

Damn Irish are always too politically correct.

If the Native Americans didn't want immigrants taking there jerbz they should have had built a wall and had England pay for it.

Well, to be fair...the Irish were treated like shit when they first came here...by far the worst treated of the Euro immigrants...

But, complaining about a leprechaun logo would be like complaining about a Santa Claus logo...why I laugh at the "Fighting Irish name and logo is racist" comments...

 

[Real Deal]

And once again, thanks for proving my point.

Guy said "this fan base is last in the league"...anything that says the Indians aren't last in the league in anything is just further proving what I am saying to him...

We're just not dead last, but we are around the category. Which makes it last by default.

 

[BimboColesHair]

We're just not dead last, but we are around the category. Which makes it last by default.

Yet, I bet if you go and look at the Rays, or the As, or the Marlins TV ratings, they are also near the bottom. Meanwhile the Indians are almost cracking the top 5...like I said, the interest and the size of the fanbase is there...the park drawing power is not.

But you bringing up the "entire fan base being terrible" based on just in person attendance alone is insulting to people who still support the team who no longer live in Cleveland...like me...you'd be surprised at, at least whenever I went to Indians vs Astros games when I still lived in Houston, how much of the crowd was made up of transplanted Clevelanders...same can be said for Rockets games as well...

 

[Soda]

Don't know who the hell Rhea is, but I almost completely agree with him/her. Time for a change. Only rock the block C stuff. And for the one hundredth time: BRING BACK THE SPIDERS.

I find it odd that it's okay for her to assign a perspective to someone else. That's what's interesting. I grew up with Chief Wahoo and have a ton of fond memories with Chief Wahoo smack-dab in them. I also have an aunt who has family living on a reservation in Oklahoma, a cousin who does a ton of native American dancing and who also doesn't like Chief Wahoo. I get why they don't like the logo and I would be okay with it going, but by no means do I want it to go. I'll be sad, but I understand.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I find it odd that it's okay for her to assign a perspective to someone else. That's what's interesting. I grew up with Chief Wahoo and have a ton of fond memories with Chief Wahoo smack-dab in them. I also have an aunt who has family living on a reservation in Oklahoma, a cousin who does a ton of native American dancing and who also doesn't like Chief Wahoo. I get why they don't like the logo and I would be okay with it going, but by no means do I want it to go. I'll be sad, but I understand.

Exactly...the Chief, as controversial as it is, is one of the most recognizable logos in all of sports. Will it suck to see it go? Of course. Do I understand why it will go? Of course.

But my big issue right now is the lack of progression of a new logo. I own 2 Indians hats. The current Block C, and the 70s crooked C...I can't tell you how many times someone has yelled at me from afar "Go Cubs!" while I've been wearing those hats...it sucks.

I'd love it if they could get together with a group of Natives and come up with an alternative, like numerous teams have done. Chief Wahoo is recognizable because it was an uncommon logo (before it became incredibly criticized)...going to a block letter just seems like overcompensation to me...

 

[Soda]

But my big issue right now is the lack of progression of a new logo. I own 2 Indians hats. The current Block C, and the 70s crooked C...I can't tell you how many times someone has yelled at me from afar "Go Cubs!" while I've been wearing those hats...it sucks.

Let me ask you this. Completely unrelated to the drama surrounding Chief..

Do you think logos like the block C and the crooked C are actually less recognizable than other teams' alt logos because of how recognizable and synonymous Chief is with the Indians?

 

[shoes22]

I'm picking up the mantle for the pro-Wahoo argument in this thread, because I've yet to see anyone on my side actually make a good argument for keeping it. Let's do a little experiment. When you see this logo, what's the first word that comes to mind?

For most Americans, the word most synonymous with this logo isn't "Native American"...it's "baseball". The second most synonymous word is Cleveland. A reverse Google image search confirms this. The meaning of slang words evolve over time, and the same principle applies to symbols. The important thing to keep in mind here is no Native American actually looks like this. The logo has moved past its cloudy origins, and have developed a meaning and cultural identity entirely on its own...and I think that's amazing. Something that I think would be a real shame if it were to go away.

For anyone that finds the symbol offensive, I would say to them, the Chief isn't supposed to be representative of a group of people anymore. It's little more than a singular cartoon image of a smiling face! It appeals to kids! The Cleveland Indians have long removed all references to traditional Native American associated words and imagery, besides the name and logo. And as time goes on, even the word "Indians" is becoming less and less associated with the Native American people!!! No young child would think that logo is supposed to be depicting an actual Native American person unless someone explicitly tells them.

I view Chief Wahoo as its own entity. As a non-human character. As an art symbol. A symbol that when I see it, makes me think of the local baseball team. A symbol that evokes happiness and memories in a lot of people, myself included. Let's not be boring and unoriginal like all the other MLB logos and adopt a goddamn letter as our official logo.

Keep the character, because Cleveland has character.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Let me ask you this. Completely unrelated to the drama surrounding Chief..

Do you think logos like the block C and the crooked C are actually less recognizable than other teams' alt logos because of how recognizable and synonymous Chief is with the Indians?

I think that's part of it, yeah. I also think its because one of the more recognizable hats/logos in baseball is the Cubs blue hat with a red C, so most people who see a blue hat with a red C, regardless if the shade is different, instantly think of the Cubs.

I also think people just naturally like logos/jerseys/color schemes that were worn when your team was good or at its best more than any other combo. Why any Cavs fan you can find will tell you the Price/Daugherty era jerseys and the LeBron era 1.0 jerseys are our best. Why people hated the sleeved black jerseys when they were first introduced, but we had a thread going immediately after they won a championship in them about where to find them and people wanting to buy one.

You just made the post about "what's the first thing you think of when you see Chief Wahoo"...the first thing I think about are the Indians teams and players I grew up watching in the 90s and early 2000s...I'm guessing most people who are fans of the Indians think that as well. Their minds don't even go to the racial undertones of the logo, because that's not what it represents to them. I'm willing to bet those are the people who don't want the Chief to go the most, because for them the Chief was a symbol of perhaps the greatest era of Cleveland baseball, and not a representation of a Native American person...

I think the best outcome in all this would be an updated version of Chief Wahoo. As I have said in a few posts...get together with a group of Natives and come up with a logo that is respectful and exclusive to Cleveland, and also help promote the Native heritage that your logo/name represents and support them (like what the Blackhawks have been doing the last ~10 years that has been heavily praised by pretty much everyone).

There has to be a middle ground somewhere...it just doesn't seem like the organization wants to find it right now though, which I don't get.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm picking up the mantle for the pro-Wahoo argument in this thread, because I've yet to see anyone on my side actually make a good argument for keeping it. Let's do a little experiment. When you see this logo, what's the first word that comes to mind?

To honestly answer your question, the first thing that has always come to mind, even since I was a kid, was racism. Even before I knew what racism really was, I knew that symbol was wrong because in my family it was talked about and discussed; whereas, I would suspect in many other households, this would be brushed off as unimportant.

We (my folks) always acknowledged and reminded ourselves that Chief Wahoo was a racist symbol. My mother, who is half Native American and looks the part, always told me it was racist... Again, we always knew the symbol was racist... We just tolerated it.

So to answer your question, @shoes22 ; it might mean "Cleveland" to you, but it doesn't to many other folks. And "most Americans" should never be a measuring stick for determining the moral treatment of a minority racial or ethnic group.

For instance...

These are all examples of historical advertisements that were in popular use at various times throughout our history. Would you be okay with these symbols being used for a modern sports team?


So again, to answer your question about how I feel... Well, personally, I find the symbol repulsive as fuck and I cannot for the life of me understand why we cannot just change the damn thing to something less overtly bigoted.

 

[BimboColesHair]

To honestly answer your question, the first thing that has always come to mind, even since I was a kid, was racism. Even before I knew what racism really was, I knew that symbol was wrong because in my family it was talked about and discussed; whereas, I would suspect in many other households, this would be brushed off as unimportant.

We (my folks) always knew Chief Wahoo was a racist symbol. My mother, who is half Native American and looks the part, always told me it was racist... We always knew the symbol was racist... We just tolerated it.

So to answer your question, @shoes22 ; it might mean "Cleveland" to you, but it doesn't to many other folks. And "most Americans" should never be a measuring stick for determining the moral treatment of a minority racial or ethnic group.

For instance...

These are all examples of historical advertisements that were in popular use at various times throughout our history. Would you be okay with these symbols being used for a modern sports team?


So again, to answer your question about how I feel... Well, personally, I find the symbol repulsive as fuck and I cannot for the life of me understand why we cannot just change the damn thing to something less overtly bigoted.

Easy...this is already an organization on shaky ground with their fanbase...completely removing Chief Wahoo on a whim, even if it is the right decision that needs to be made, will be met with a ton of backlash. It's why they are quietly removing it more and more year by year and not making a deal about it.

The one thing I hate though is that that specific group, the one which will raise all hell if the Chief is just all of a sudden axed from the organization, seems to think it will be erased entirely from existence.

I can go online, find a picture of Chief Wahoo, print it out, take it to a T-Shirt printing store, and still get Chief Wahoo apparel if I really wanted to. The team no longer being tied to the logo doesn't mean the logo will vanish without a trace...like I can still go find Miami Redskins stuff on the internet, and they've been the RedHawks for almost 20 years...

 

[gourimoko]

Easy...this is already an organization on shaky ground with their fanbase...completely removing Chief Wahoo on a whim, even if it is the right decision that needs to be made, will be met with a ton of backlash. It's why they are quietly removing it more and more year by year and not making a deal about it.

I mean, I'm sure that's good for the franchise financially; but, would someone stop watching their hometown team because they made a decision to remove a racist symbol?

What kind of people are we talking about? And are these the kind of people I want to associate with?

And FWIW, I doubt if many of those folks are really fans anyway.. To give you an example, Serena Williams lost yesterday at the U.S. Open. Can you guess what was the primary topic on Facebook/ESPN comments? It was her race, or, the fact that she's somehow uppity and entitled... In other words, you had thousands of Americans rooting against the American at the U.S. Open. I wonder if they even watched her play, and based on their comments, I somehow doubt it...

Interesting though, isn't it?

The one thing I hate though is that that specific group, the one which will raise all hell if the Chief is just all of a sudden axed from the organization, seems to think it will be erased entirely from existence.

I can go online, find a picture of Chief Wahoo, print it out, take it to a T-Shirt printing store, and still get Chief Wahoo apparel if I really wanted to. The team no longer being tied to the logo doesn't mean the logo will vanish without a trace...like I can still go find Miami Redskins stuff on the internet, and they've been the RedHawks for almost 20 years...

Indeed....

I'm not even sure why we would want Chief Wahoo erased from existence, anymore than I want those Sambo images somehow scrubbed for the Interwebs.. It's history. Let it be that, and let's move on... but also, let's not forget where we came from.

 

[shoes22]

To honestly answer your question, the first thing that has always come to mind, even since I was a kid, was racism. Even before I knew what racism really was, I knew that symbol was wrong because in my family it was talked about and discussed; whereas, I would suspect in many other households, this would be brushed off as unimportant.

We (my folks) always acknowledged and reminded ourselves that Chief Wahoo was a racist symbol. My mother, who is half Native American and looks the part, always told me it was racist... Again, we always knew the symbol was racist... We just tolerated it.

So to answer your question, @shoes22 ; it might mean "Cleveland" to you, but it doesn't to many other folks. And "most Americans" should never be a measuring stick for determining the moral treatment of a minority racial or ethnic group.

For instance...

These are all examples of historical advertisements that were in popular use at various times throughout our history. Would you be okay with these symbols being used for a modern sports team?


So again, to answer your question about how I feel... Well, personally, I find the symbol repulsive as fuck and I cannot for the life of me understand why we cannot just change the damn thing to something less overtly bigoted.

I respect your opinion and understand why you feel that way.

But the difference between the ads you posted and Wahoo is that in those ads, those drawings are clearly meant to depict a caricature of a specific race. There is zero ambiguity there. Something that is more analogous to your examples is the original 1947-1950 Chief Wahoo logo...which is an actual caricature of a Native American person and a racist logo, and I’m glad it’s gone.

But as for the current logo...the ONLY defining features of it are a smiling red face, and a blue cap with a single generic red feather. That is so vague and generic you can make the argument that it’s no longer trying to be a racial depiction. There’s nothing inherently racial about a red cartoon face and a feather.

It’s not a symbol of a real-life Native American, and it’s not supposed to be. To emphasize this point, the Indians organization made the logo a brighter shade of red in 1986, to help drive home the point that the logo is nothing more than an anthropomorphic cartoon.

And while I respect your opinion that you and your family view the symbol as racist because of its origins, I personally know other Native Americans that have no problem (or no opinion) of the logo whatsoever, because they just see the logo for what it is without any deeper racial meaning.

 

[David.]

I respect your opinion and understand why you feel that way.

But the difference between the ads you posted and Wahoo is that in those ads, those drawings are clearly meant to depict a caricature of a specific race. There is zero ambiguity there. Something that is more analogous to your examples is the original 1947-1950 Chief Wahoo logo...which is an actual caricature of a Native American person and a racist logo, and I’m glad it’s gone.

But as for the current logo...the ONLY defining features of it are a smiling red face, and a blue cap with a single generic red feather. That is so vague and generic you can make the argument that it’s no longer trying to be a racial depiction. There’s nothing inherently racial about a red cartoon face and a feather.

It’s not a symbol of a real-life Native American, and it’s not supposed to be. To emphasize this point, the Indians organization made the logo a brighter shade of red in 1986, to help drive home the point that the logo is nothing more than an anthropomorphic cartoon.

And while I respect your opinion that you and your family view the symbol as racist because of its origins, I personally know other Native Americans that have no problem (or no opinion) of the logo whatsoever, because they just see the logo for what it is without any deeper racial meaning.

How is that different than a caricature of a black person with a watermelon?

I remember seeing the pictures @gourimoko posted but didn't know how to find them or I'd have referenced them.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Adding onto how marketing can examine it's own past, here is the accurate development of Aunt Jemima over the past 130 years...

http://blackgirlsguidetoweightloss....n-marketing-magic-the-history-of-aunt-jemima/

I think the Cleveland Indians find themselves in a similar situation, perhaps even less dubious. This is now a part of many different histories, both Native American and local to a region. When this does happen, it's important to work together for an end goal. Rewriting history or spinning one side of the history never works.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I mean, I'm sure that's good for the franchise financially; but, would someone stop watching their hometown team because they made a decision to remove a racist symbol?

What kind of people are we talking about? And are these the kind of people I want to associate with?

And FWIW, I doubt if many of those folks are really fans anyway.. To give you an example, Serena Williams lost yesterday at the U.S. Open. Can you guess what was the primary topic on Facebook/ESPN comments? It was her race, or, the fact that she's somehow uppity and entitled... In other words, you had thousands of Americans rooting against the American at the U.S. Open. I wonder if they even watched her play, and based on their comments, I somehow doubt it...

Interesting though, isn't it?



Indeed....

I'm not even sure why we would want Chief Wahoo erased from existence, anymore than I want those Sambo images somehow scrubbed for the Interwebs.. It's history. Let it be that, and let's move on... but also, let's not forget where we came from.

I don't think people would stop watching or supporting or spending money on the Indians if they got rid of the Chief per say...I do think a culmination of things that have happened over the last decade plus under the current ownership, including a potential removal of the Chief, would result in the loss of money and support though, at least from a select group of people.

And these aren't all bad people who are like this (like that guy in red face who yelled at Natives saying "he's doing this to honor them" a few years ago...what a lack of self-awareness that was...that guy fucking sucks). One of my better friends has a Chief tattoo on his leg...die hard fan, one of the nicest dudes I know...he's stated numerous times that he won't go to another Indians game for as long he lives if they remove him entirely...and this is someone who absolutely loved OSU when he was younger, and has now hated them for over a decade because he didn't get into the school...some people are just stubborn, it is what it is...can't change everyone, and everyone isn't going to welcome change with open arms...but sometimes they don't welcome change for reasons as trivial as "I like the logo", and it isn't because they are racist or bigoted...

Also, I'm not going to sit here and act like the asshole vocal collection on Twitter, or Facebook, or ESPN message boards is the voice of the masses...there are tons of good people out there who choose to stay quiet instead of dive into a world of negativity, which is all social media is these days...

Also...you know me and my history background...I could not agree more about keeping terrible shit around from our past in order to learn from it and never do it again...why I always drop the hammer during my WWII lesson plans that the US had their own internment camps...or their concentration camps in the Philippines...