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Free Press/Fake Press

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How can you prove this?

You mean, how can I falsify Trump's claim?

It's rather easy.

Trump's argument is that no less than 4.36% of Hillary Clinton's votes are fraudulent; this must be true given that he argues he would have won had there not been so many "illegals" voting. This would mean that ~2.86 million votes were cast illegally.

However, there is nowhere to find these 3M supposedly illegal votes. Where are these votes, in what states? Not Republican states, right? So only Democratic states? Where can we stuff 3M ballots?

This is made even worse with the low turnout (60%) and divided support we had this year (4 candidates).

Unless we assume that these illegal votes are diffused throughout the country and are solely biased towards Clinton, enough so as to account for between 4-5% of her share of the popular vote; then we should be able to identify large groups - tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands - of illegal votes cast.

How would he prove it with investigation?

Easily.

You audit the voter registration rolls and determine who voted in the 2016 Presidential Election. From there you can determine how many people are legally able to vote in the state in which they voted.

While you can't know who they voted for, you could know, demographically, who they were likely to vote for based on exit polling in their region. Nonetheless, Trump's claim of "3 to 5 million illegal votes cast" is nonsense, and there is no evidence to support it.

It's truly an asinine suggestion based on nothing.
 
You mean, how can I falsify Trump's claim?

It's rather easy.

Trump's argument is that no less than 4.36% of Hillary Clinton's votes are fraudulent; this must be true given that he argues he would have won had there not been so many "illegals" voting. This would mean that ~2.86 million votes were cast illegally.

However, there is nowhere to find these 3M supposedly illegal votes. Where are these votes, in what states? Not Republican states, right? So only Democratic states? Where can we stuff 3M ballots?

This is made even worse with the low turnout (60%) and divided support we had this year (4 candidates).

Unless we assume that these illegal votes are diffused throughout the country and are solely biased towards Clinton, enough so as to account for between 4-5% of her share of the popular vote; then we should be able to identify large groups - tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands - of illegal votes cast.



Easily.

You audit the voter registration rolls and determine who voted in the 2016 Presidential Election. From there you can determine how many people are legally able to vote in the state in which they voted.

While you can't know who they voted for, you could know, demographically, who they were likely to vote for based on exit polling in their region. Nonetheless, Trump's claim of "3 to 5 million illegal votes cast" is nonsense, and there is no evidence to support it.

It's truly an asinine suggestion based on nothing.


Not caught up my hw on this, but there have been a litany of claims, even one from this site, explaining issues.. someone here already was voted for. People receive absentee ballots in the mail for people that don't live there, or deceased ppl.

Cali only requires drivers license which I think you can get without becoming a citizen.. or id card, I forget which.

Some people here claim they were never asked for id.

Just for good measure, what are the possible ways fraudulent votes could have been counted?

I'm not after a debate, I want to see where actual lapses in the system are.. that includes busing people over lines (I watched Booker's doc on Netflix) to absentee ballots to lack of verification before voting, etc etc etc

Edit:what ever happened to the Detroit audit?
 
Not caught up my hw on this, but there have been a litany of claims, even one from this site, explaining issues.. someone here already was voted for. People receive absentee ballots in the mail for people that don't live there, or deceased ppl.

In every one of those instances, in the state of Ohio, there are provisions to ensure the correct vote is counted. For example, if you go to vote and they tell you they've already recorded your vote - that could be a very simple mistake. I know this because it happens all the time; someone signs on the wrong line. In such an instance, you vote with a provisional ballot. Provisional ballots are then verified and only one ballot is counted, not two. Same goes for absentee ballots in the mail, etc.

Cali only requires drivers license which I think you can get without becoming a citizen.. or id card, I forget which.

California does not require a drivers license to vote. You should not have shown any ID to vote in San Diego.

Moreover, starting in 2016, California stores citizenship records in the state DMV database.

Lastly, non-citizens can certainly get drivers licenses in all 50 states.

Some people here claim they were never asked for id.

You should never be asked for identification to vote unless the state has a Voter ID law in place. Most states do not ask for ID and never have. It's important to understand that only 8 states in the Union expressly require photo ID to vote.

Just for good measure, what are the possible ways fraudulent votes could have been counted?

There are numerous ways that a fraudulent vote could be counted; but it's not something that's easy to do in a widespread and controlled manner. The question instead is to what extent are these votes cast and is there any bias in who these "voters" are supporting. Trump equates "illegals" with fraudulent votes, to the extent of 3-5 million votes cast. That's nonsense.

I'm not after a debate, I want to see where actual lapses in the system are.. that includes busing people over lines

You can bus people anywhere you like... If they're not on the voter registration rolls then they're not going to vote. Think about the last time you went to go vote... Imagine a bus full of people showing up and trying to vote for others... it's impractical.

(I watched Booker's doc on Netflix) to absentee ballots to lack of verification before voting, etc etc etc

Indeed.. It's an interesting topic and surely you should do your research on these aspects; but, suffice to say, there's no evidence of widespread fraud in the voting system. That's why there's such indignation over Trump's continued insistence that he lost the popular vote due to 3-5 million illegal votes.
 
to answer both of you guys, im not trying to be flippant, but i do stick by my original statement, which is in the middle: he made a claim thats illogical due to burden of proof, and its unfair.. there is no proof as to the extent of voter fraud.

i dont feel voter id is racist or classist.. i do feel illegal immigrants are abundant and encouraged to vote democrat. i dont believe that is fair.

im, for the most part, done with debating. i dont feel im receiving anything tangibly beneficial, and its a waste of time. sometimes its fun to see people back up their claims, ill do that, but debating on this board is silly and fruitless.. you could be correct on 14 points straight but if the other person is correct on the lsat point, you lost.. etc etc etc etc etc. its just a waste of time.

these are my beliefs, I dont believe america is getting any better, i believe theyre goetting so upset and divided that i literally cant talk to my own friends now who just say really fucked up, hateful stuff. so I guess im peeling off of this venture and.. triyng to find a new meaning of my life.
 
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Trump tweeted that the New York Times is "fake news," further proof that he is simply exploiting the term to discredit anyone who criticizes him.


There is a difference between bias and altogether bullshit. The spread of misinformation this election was incredible and frightening. Completely made up stories made the rounds through various aunts Facebook feeds and helped solidify a voting populace. The proliferation of so much garbage media alongside a profit-driven fourth estate and an incoming administration that rails against all media has resulted in a complete lack of trust.

Now Donald can elevate the Laura Ingraham's and maybe even the Alex Jones' to be on the same playing field as the New York fucking Times without having to put in any of the journalistic work.



As for the above editorial about journalistic standards, that's as much about respecting decorum as anything. STILL, the wake of countless lies from this administration regarding even trivial matters, we hear words like "falsehoods" and "alternative facts" and "claims" rather than what they are, LIES. I don't think that editorial is about making shit up and becoming untrustworthy for the sake of tearing down Trump, but rather being willing to step out of the norm, which is to show respect to both sides and allow some amount of equivalency to exist, and just show what the fuck is wrong with these people. Trump is a special case for a lot of reasons in how he campaigned and how he governs. Given everything I know about him I have no reason to want or expect the news to treat him like a Republican. It isn't just disagreement, he's wrong. He's lying. He's objectively bad. That's how I come away feeling.

The thing about the boy who cried wolf is that the boy lied a few times. That's not the story we're in. Here's our story:

There once were a few boys who needed to watch the sheep. All the boys were motivated by getting sheckles from the townspeople they convinced to come help. One of the boys would cry wolf even if they just saw a dog or a coyote. So the townspeople kept giving him sheckles. Some of the other boys saw this and started following suit. One of the boys told the townspeople the sheep have never been safer and also got some sheckles. The boy who went to all the sheep to see how they were doing withered and died.

Then, a mastadon-sized wolf then came to town and started ripping sheep to shreds. The townspeople who thought we were completely safe before react wildly, looking irrational. The townspeople who thought there was a wolf epidemic saw it as business as usual, ignoring the threat. The wolf tore through the sheep while half the townspeople continued ignoring the many issues it presented not realizing that it's their fucking sheep they are letting get destroyed. And why should they care anyway? Those other townspeople are so smug, fucking snowflake pieces of shit.

Once again the metaphor has lost sight of its rails, so I'll stop.
 
How would you organize the news networks in the pic?
Everything in the middle is definitely to the left and there are much more left leaning sources than pictured.

The graph tries to show balance but there really isn't
 
Everything in the middle is definitely to the left and there are much more left leaning sources than pictured.

The graph tries to show balance but there really isn't

This isn't really true.

Clear Channel has far more right-leaning programming and they dominate the airwaves.

Moreover, there are plenty of conservative newspaper outlets and websites. And there is more money behind non-cable news/nightly news conservative outlets than there is for liberal outlets.

A primary example of this is the continued failure of networks like Air America, which simply cannot get off the ground even after 3 failed attempts.
 
I find it both interesting and disheartening that the media is being vilified to the extent that it is. Yeah, a fair bit of it is sensationalistic trash, both Left and Right and wherever else.

But, a lot of it isn't. People have dedicated their professional livelihoods to reporting in a nonpartisan way, attempting to keep their readers informed. Yes, there will always be some biased as to what is covered and how, but nonetheless it can be mitigated by remaining professional.

I think its sickening they way they are being vilified. What Trump is doing is plain wrong. Its antithetical to what the US believes in. Delegitimizing the press is tantamount to censoring it.

I, for one, am thankful that the NY Times is not backing down on coverage of Trump.

Anyway, here is a piece by Reuters Editor-In-Chief to its staff:

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/rpb-adlertrump-idUSKBN15F276

Covering Trump the Reuters Way

In a message to staff today, Reuters Editor-in-Chief Steve Adler wrote about covering President Trump the Reuters way:

The first 12 days of the Trump presidency (yes, that’s all it’s been!) have been memorable for all – and especially challenging for us in the news business. It’s not every day that a U.S. president calls journalists “among the most dishonest human beings on earth” or that his chief strategist dubs the media “the opposition party.” It’s hardly surprising that the air is thick with questions and theories about how to cover the new Administration.

So what is the Reuters answer? To oppose the administration? To appease it? To boycott its briefings? To use our platform to rally support for the media? All these ideas are out there, and they may be right for some news operations, but they don’t make sense for Reuters. We already know what to do because we do it every day, and we do it all over the world.

To state the obvious, Reuters is a global news organization that reports independently and fairly in more than 100 countries, including many in which the media is unwelcome and frequently under attack. I am perpetually proud of our work in places such as Turkey, the Philippines, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Thailand, China, Zimbabwe, and Russia, nations in which we sometimes encounter some combination of censorship, legal prosecution, visa denials, and even physical threats to our journalists. We respond to all of these by doing our best to protect our journalists, by recommitting ourselves to reporting fairly and honestly, by doggedly gathering hard-to-get information – and by remaining impartial. We write very rarely about ourselves and our troubles and very often about the issues that will make a difference in the businesses and lives of our readers and viewers.

We don’t know yet how sharp the Trump administration’s attacks will be over time or to what extent those attacks will be accompanied by legal restrictions on our news-gathering. But we do know that we must follow the same rules that govern our work anywhere, namely:

Do’s:

  • Cover what matters in people’s lives and provide them the facts they need to make better decisions.
  • Become ever-more resourceful: If one door to information closes, open another one.
  • Give up on hand-outs and worry less about official access. They were never all that valuable anyway. Our coverage of Iran has been outstanding, and we have virtually no official access. What we have are sources.
  • Get out into the country and learn more about how people live, what they think, what helps and hurts them, and how the government and its actions appear to them, not to us.
  • Keep the Thomson Reuters Trust Principles close at hand, remembering that “the integrity, independence and freedom from bias of Reuters shall at all times be fully preserved.”
Don’ts:

  • Never be intimidated, but:
  • Don’t pick unnecessary fights or make the story about us. We may care about the inside baseball but the public generally doesn’t and might not be on our side even if it did.
  • Don’t vent publicly about what might be understandable day-to-day frustration. In countless other countries, we keep our own counsel so we can do our reporting without being suspected of personal animus. We need to do that in the U.S., too.
  • Don’t take too dark a view of the reporting environment: It’s an opportunity for us to practice the skills we’ve learned in much tougher places around the world and to lead by example – and therefore to provide the freshest, most useful, and most illuminating information and insight of any news organization anywhere.
This is our mission, in the U.S. and everywhere. We make a difference in the world because we practice professional journalism that is both intrepid and unbiased. When we make mistakes, which we do, we correct them quickly and fully. When we don’t know something, we say so. When we hear rumors, we track them down and report them only when we are confident that they are factual. We value speed but not haste: When something needs more checking, we take the time to check it. We try to avoid “permanent exclusives” – first but wrong. We operate with calm integrity not just because it’s in our rulebook but because – over 165 years – it has enabled us to do the best work and the most good.
 
You want to talk about fake news:

View: https://twitter.com/joesonka/status/827344429086289921



This woman is the worst.

she got the facts confused, but she was apparently talking about this

Waad Ramadan Alwan and Mohanad Shareef Hammadi, two Iraqi nationals, were arrested in Bowling Green, Ky., after a two-year FBI investigation.

They were indicted for allegedly providing assistance to Al Qaeda in Iraq and attempting to send weapons overseas. The men were living in the United States and had been granted refugee status, despite their insurgency activities in Iraq and their role in attacking U.S. troops.

Alwan has been charged with conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals, distributing information about explosives, conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, attempting to provide material support to terrorists and conspiracy to transfer and possess weapons. Hammadi is charged with attempting to provide material support to terrorists and conspiracy to transfer and possess weapons.

The FBI began to investigate Alwan in September 2009, using an informant to obtain information about his involvement with the insurgency in Iraq. During one meeting with the FBI's informant, Alwan allegedly said that he was skilled with sniper rifles, adding that his "lunch and dinner would be an American [soldier]." Alwan also allegedly discussed how he would assemble bomb components and place roadside IEDs after curfew in Iraq. Alwan allegedly was part of the insurgency from 2003 until May 2006, when he was arrested by Iraqi authorities.

As the FBI continued its investigation into Alwan, analysts concluded that a set of his fingerprints matched an unexploded IED that U.S. troops had recovered in Bayji, Iraq, in September 2005. The match was made by the FBI's Terrorist Explosive Device Analytical Center, which analyzes bomb construction, components and forensics to identify bomb makers and new and emerging trends that U.S. forces have seen in war zones. The center has also tried to work on countermeasures to disrupt and disarm IEDs. Alwan allegedly told the FBI informant that he had lived near Bayji, and that he had used a specific type of cordless phone to construct an IED, which was made up of three artillery shells.

The FBI informant told Alwan that his boss had received funds from Osama bin Laden, and during a September 2010 discussion Alwan allegedly expressed interest in helping them provide support to terrorists in Iraq. The criminal complaint against Alwan alleges that the informant "told Alwan that a group he was affiliated with planned to support the mujahedeen in Iraq by shipping them money and weapons ... by secreting them in hidden compartments in vehicles that were being shipped to Iraq."

Alwan has been charged with providing material support for allegedly drawing diagrams of IEDs, and showing how they could be constructed. The informant asked Alwan during an October 2010 meeting if he could train people to produce the devices. Alwan allegedly said, "It's easy. It doesn't take much."


In November 2010, Alwan participated with the FBI informant in moving machine guns and rocket propelled grenades, Stinger missiles and plastic explosives from a storage facility to a truck that Alwan had been told was going to be used to ship the weapons overseas to Iraq. Alwan later recruited Hammadi to help him move weapons and cash to the tractor trailer. The FBI was secretly video taping the men loading the container. The men in March 2011 allegedly picked up two Stinger missiles from the storage facility and delivered them to the tractor trailer where they believed the items would be shipped to Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Last February, FBI Director Robert Mueller testified before Congress that the FBI was looking at possible instances of individuals in Al Qaeda in Iraq being involved in activities in the United States.

"I'll mention two other areas of threat within the United States," Mueller said. "One is -- relates to individuals going to Somalia to fight with al-Shabab, where we are closely monitoring that situation, as well as threats from Al Qaeda in Iraq, individuals who may have been resettled here in the United States that have had some association with Al Qaeda in Iraq."

Although both Alwan and Hammadi had been arrested by Iraq security forces, in 2006 they were allowed to enter the United States as refugees in April and July 2009, respectively. Asked why officials and Homeland Security had not properly vetted or reviewed the men's records, a Homeland Security official said, "This case demonstrates specific gaps that were present in the screening process that was in place in the beginning of the administration. Once the administration became aware of these gaps, it took immediate steps to fill them. Today our vetting process considers a far broader range of information than it did in past years."

Officials at Homeland Security say that they now continue to review applicants' names and fingerprint data, and cross reference it with available intelligence information and watchlists to see if there is derogatory information that may bar individuals from entering the United States or denying them a U.S. visa.

Lawyers for the two men could not be identified or reached based on a review of the court files available at this time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/kent...madan-alwan-mohanad-shareef/story?id=13727518
 
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