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LeBron James

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LeBron could pass Jordan for winning % in the playoffs this year.

Win/Loss record in the playoffs:

LeBron: 134-68 (.663)
Jordan: 119-60 (.665)

If the Cavs win game 4, he'll be slightly ahead. It's really incredible.

Some people will say, "First round series are best of 7 rather then best of 5 in Jordan's day," which is but that's just negligible since in a best of five, it's easier to win 3-0 and boost that winning percentage whereas it's more difficult to sweep 4-0. Also, if you're having to go 6 games in the first round, you're not really gaining an edge in winning % anyway.
 
Theres a lot dumb kobe haters in here. Kobe has had a tougher road then both Jordan and Lebron. Had to overcome more 50 win teams. Hes beaten 24, Jordan has beaten 20, Lebron has beaten 7.
 
Theres a lot dumb kobe haters in here. Kobe has had a tougher road then both Jordan and Lebron. Had to overcome more 50 win teams. Hes beaten 24, Jordan has beaten 20, Lebron has beaten 7.

At the time this 50 info team came Lebron was what 29 or 30 years old? Can't compare Kobes total career 50 win teams beaten to Lebrons while his career isn't finished.

Also that lockout year in 2012 where they only played ~60 regular season games..you would have to adjust for the 50 win pace teams that Lebron faced that postseason.

There was also 2013...The Pacers won 49 games that year but only played 80/81 games that year because something happened with the weather or some shit. Can't remember. Thats also another ~50 win team right there that isn't counted.

And finally like another previous poster stated...Kobe wasn't even the first option/leader for a good chunk of those wins. When did Kobe lead his team past the first round as the top guy? 2008? If you wanna count those wins that Shaq was responsible for...you will have to include the 50 win teams that the Cavs beat as lebron declines/kyrie takes over...

Factoring all this in...the 50 win teams beaten gap isn't so large. Plus he's the only player to beat a 73 win team :chuckle:
 
At the time this 50 info team came Lebron was what 29 or 30 years old? Can't compare Kobes total career 50 win teams beaten to Lebrons while his career isn't finished.

Also that lockout year in 2012 where they only played ~60 regular season games..you would have to adjust for the 50 win pace teams that Lebron faced that postseason.

There was also 2013...The Pacers won 49 games that year but only played 80/81 games that year because something happened with the weather or some shit. Can't remember. Thats also another ~50 win team right there that isn't counted.

And finally like another previous poster stated...Kobe wasn't even the first option/leader for a good chunk of those wins. When did Kobe lead his team past the first round as the top guy? 2008? If you wanna count those wins that Shaq was responsible for...you will have to include the 50 win teams that the Cavs beat as lebron declines/kyrie takes over...

Factoring all this in...the 50 win teams beaten gap isn't so large. Plus he's the only player to beat a 73 win team :chuckle:

My post wasnt taking away from Lebron, it was showing why Kobe is still so under appreciated. I think Lebron is better than Kobe but I still put Kobe top 5. Best laker of all time.
 
LOL man. Kobe was never the first option in probably at least half of his play off wins.

Any player next to a prime Shaq would have been 2nd option. I honestly dont think you guys even watched a Lakers game and only listen to the rhetoric. There were many 4th quarters Kobe bailed out shaq for being in foul trouble.

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Theres a lot dumb kobe haters in here. Kobe has had a tougher road then both Jordan and Lebron. Had to overcome more 50 win teams. Hes beaten 24, Jordan has beaten 20, Lebron has beaten 7.


kobe is overrated and the most underwhelming numbers and he wasn't that clutch





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Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:

22.3 PPG,

5.6 RPG,

3.7 APG,

1.2 SPG,

.6 BPG,

3.0 TOPG,

41.4 FG%,

27.5 3P%,

77.9 FT%


Straight up game 7's or 5's

21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

-W/out Game 5’s
22.2 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 2.2 TOPG, 38.9 FG%, 35.8 3P%, 67.3 FT%



NBA Finals Shooting Numbers

Kobe


2000 NBA Finals – 36.7% FG

2001 NBA Finals – 41.5% FG

2002 NBA Finals – 51.4% FG

2004 NBA Finals – 38.1% FG

2008 NBA Finals – 40.5% FG

2009 NBA Finals – 43.0% FG

2010 NBA Finals – 40.5% FG,

KObe - 41 FG% finals career




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Kobe and the Clutch Playoff Performance Myth
(2011)



In my 25 plus years of following the NBA, one of the more fascinating phenomena to me has been the plight of those that I refer to as “Kobe Nation”. Now, I’m not referring to Kobe “fans” - Many of those are a dime a dozen, stuffing the All-Star ballot box, displaying their #24 jerseys during road games, and riding the Kobe-train as long as the Lakers remain on top. No, I’m talking about Kobe Nation – those who have repeatedly extolled the virtues of Kobe Bryant while partaking on a daily quest to defend his basketball legacy, game performances, and polarizing personality. They are his apostles, and their fervor rivals that of even the most religious of zealots. They respond to criticism, deserved or undeserved, with an inverse defiance that embodies the personality of their hero; the more you critique them, the more combative they will become, the less they will listen, and the more likely you will be called a “hater”. For every action, there is a reaction.

Earlier in the season, ESPN’s Henry Abbott questioned Bryant’s status as the most “clutch” player in the NBA, and as you can imagine, Kobe Nation responded with a fury. Specifically, Abbott defended his stance by citing the Game Winning/Game Tying Shot metric traditionally used by coaches and GMs when scouting opposing teams – shot attempts in the final 24 seconds of a game during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points. And during Kobe’s 15-year career (regular season and playoffs), the results showed that he made only 36 game winning/game tying shots while missing a stellar 79, or 36/115.

So why then is Kobe Bryant considered to be the unanimous first choice among GMs, coaches, and players for taking the game winning/game tying shot for all the marbles? Abbott cites the media’s propensity to exhaust the highlight reel, limitations of human memory, and our attraction to flashiness rather than substance as the primary reasons for why fans, coaches, players, and GMs are misguided
]. In sum, people usually remember Bryant’s makes, which are undoubtedly spectacular in nature, but not his misses.

So where do I stand?

First a plea to Kobe Nation…. Allow me to go on record by stating that Kobe Bryant is one of the 10 greatest players to ever play the game. By the time he retires, he will likely be top 5. He is a phenomenal all-around player in every aspect of the game, and possesses a unique combination of talent and skill, that in my opinion, can only be rivaled by Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James and Hakeem Olaujuwon. He also has a basketball IQ that is simply off the charts – a unique feel for the game that despite his numerous injuries, has allowed him to remain physically effective in a manner that is traditionally reserved for 20-somethings. Other than Michael Jordan, I have yet to see a player who displays the same level of ferocity, stubbornness, and will to win that Kobe Bryant does.

However, Henry Abbott is right. Kobe Bryant IS overrated in the clutch, and even more so when it comes to game winning/game tying shots. That’s right Kobe Nation, you heard me. In which universe does missing 79 out of 115 game winning/game tying shots constitute clutchness? Clutchness to me has always been defined basically and inherently. You either succeed and come through for your team, when your team needs you the most, or you don’t. And in 115 instances, during the time in which Bryant’s teams have needed him the most, he has succeeded only 36 times while failing 79 times. That’s a 31% success rate folks. It’s that simple.

We are not talking about a complex John Hollinger formula or algorithm. We are talking about a fairly straight forward metric – less than 24 seconds, time winding down, ball in Kobe’s hands, chance to win or tie, miss or make. All other variables are irrelevant:

- “Kobe is the most fearless”

- “Kobe wants the ball in his hands at the end of the game”

- “Kobe has the ability to make the most spectacular shots”

None of this matters. The only thing that matters is the result.

So that got me thinking – if the 36/115 stat includes both playoffs and regular season, how has Bryant performed in game winning and game tying shot situations during the playoffs alone? After all, playoff games are the ones that count the most, right? The pinnacle of pressure? The most important of time of the year when everything is at stake? Is there really a more clutch opportunity than a game winning/game tying shot in a playoff game?

The answer: Bryant is 7/25 or 28% -slightly worse during the playoffs than the regular season.


Keep in mind that the game winning/game tying shot is only ONE metric of clutch, and in a future article we will post additional data reviewing Kobe’s performance during the last 2 minutes, last 5 minutes, and the entire 4Q, which further substantiates my point. However, for now, we will focus on the game winning/game tying shot metric, which in my mind, represents the MOST pressure packed situations in a game.

Below is a breakdown of game winning/game tying shot attempt throughout Kobe Bryant’s 15 year career:

Kobe and the Clutch Playoff Performance Myth

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What model-dependent realism has to say about whether Kobe is clutch




Kobe isn't Clutch:


Despite all of his clutch fame, Kobe has had his skeptics. Most non-Laker fans hold this opinion. Some of this skepticism is based purely on hate, and other is based off of facts. Recently, ESPN analysts have criticized Kobe's numbers and how they deceive people in articles like this and this. What, exactly, makes Kobe so not clutch?

While Kobe has made a ton of clutch shots over his career, he has missed significantly more. Between 2000 and 2012, Kobe shot by far the highest number of attempts (230) in the final minute of games with a margin of five points or fewer for regular season games. Of those 230 attempts, he only made 80 of them. 80/230 puts him at a mediocre 34.8%, only slightly above the atrocious league average of 33.7%. This means that for every clutch basket that Kobe makes, he has 1.87 clutch misses. If those numbers are considered worthy of being considered one of the clutchest players of all time, Amar'e Stoudemire should be up there, as well. When your clutch numbers are worse than this guy, you probably should join a depression clinic before an all-clutch NBA team.

Regular season games are great and all, but the playoffs are the games that really matter. If you think Kobe's clutch numbers are better there, boy are you wrong. In the final minute of playoff games where the margin is within five points, Kobe has gone 10/31. That's 32.3%, which means that for every one amazing make Kobe has he has 2.09 bricks. Granted this playoff number comes in a small sample size; LeBron James (apparent, notable choke artist) has actually made the same number of clutch shots in the final minute of a playoff game as Kobe between 2000 and 2012 with 11 fewer attempts. That's not even including the plethora of clutch makes LeBron had against the Pacers and Spurs. Kobe's numbers are certainly not indicative of a player who shows up in big games.

As much of an offensive threat as Kobe is, one would expect that the Lakers would have a top-notch offense in crunch time of close games. To see a complete recap of just how bad Kobe and the Lakers' crunch time numbers are, you should check out Henry Abbott's Truehoop article posted a few years ago. One of the most stunning excerpts from this article is:

You'd expect Los Angeles to also have one of the league's best offenses in crunch time, right? Especially with the ball in the hands of the player most suited to those moments.

That's not what happens, though. In the final 24 seconds of close games the Lakers offense regresses horribly, managing just 82 points per 100 possessions...

The Lakers are not among the league leaders in crunch-time offense -- instead, they're just about average, scoring 82.35 points per 100 possessions in a league that averages 80.03. They are, however, among the league leaders in how much worse their offense declines in crunch time.

When Bryant is on the floor in crunch time, Bryant's Lakers are actually outscored by their opponents.

Kobe is said to be the clutchest player of all time, yet the Lakers' offensive numbers beg to differ
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A Stephen Hawking theory & the Kobe clutch debate
 
There's no way i'd take Amare [or any league average player] over Kobe in a clutch situation, even if they did have similar numbers.
 
Someone shit on Pau Gasol potentially winning the '10 Finals MVP, but he was amazing against the Celtics. IMO better than Kobe was.

The Lakers outscored the Celtics by 21 points per 100 possessions with Gasol on the court, compared to only 9 points per 100 better with Kobe. Kobe's counting stats were great (29/8/4), but his shooting splits were awful (41/32/88), he turned the ball over a ton (27 assists to 27 TOs), and he ended up shooting a woeful 6-24 in the deciding Game 7.

Compare that to Gasol, who averaged an efficient 19/12/4 on 48/0/72 splits, played more minutes than Kobe did, anchored LA's defense with 2.6 blocks per game, and dominated Game 7 with a 19/18 and was the only Laker starter with a positive +/-.

The only time LeBron played in a Finals where one of his teammates outplayed him was 2011, when he collapsed against the Mavs and Dwyane Wade clearly outplayed him. Every other time he's played in the Finals he's raised his game to unbelievable heights no one on his team can match. Kyrie was absolutely amazing last year, but LeBron was just on another level.
 
Theres a lot dumb kobe haters in here. Kobe has had a tougher road then both Jordan and Lebron. Had to overcome more 50 win teams. Hes beaten 24, Jordan has beaten 20, Lebron has beaten 7.
This is a really fair point. I think LeBron is leagues better than Kobe; but, Kobe is still top-twenty all-time. Also, not sure why "Kobe didn't contribute anything unique." He literally has a generation of guys who talk about emulating him, Kyrie, Westbrook, and Harden chief among them.

LeBron's my favorite, and frankly, in the convo for GOAT... But some of the Kobe talk is straight-up disrespect.
 
Kobe is a great player, one of the greatest of all time, who has had his clutch reputation overblown a tad by a lot of people. He was absolutely one of the most dangerous players in the league with the game on the line, but it's hard to say he's the most dangerous.

He also may or may not have raped a woman in Colorado which, I mean, holy shit. I know that's really here nor there and doesn't factor into the basketball part of the conversation, but man does it make the whitewashing of his career that much more uncomfortable.
 
Someone shit on Pau Gasol potentially winning the '10 Finals MVP, but he was amazing against the Celtics. IMO better than Kobe was.

The Lakers outscored the Celtics by 21 points per 100 possessions with Gasol on the court, compared to only 9 points per 100 better with Kobe. Kobe's counting stats were great (29/8/4), but his shooting splits were awful (41/32/88), he turned the ball over a ton (27 assists to 27 TOs), and he ended up shooting a woeful 6-24 in the deciding Game 7.

Compare that to Gasol, who averaged an efficient 19/12/4 on 48/0/72 splits, played more minutes than Kobe did, anchored LA's defense with 2.6 blocks per game, and dominated Game 7 with a 19/18 and was the only Laker starter with a positive +/-.

The only time LeBron played in a Finals where one of his teammates outplayed him was 2011, when he collapsed against the Mavs and Dwyane Wade clearly outplayed him. Every other time he's played in the Finals he's raised his game to unbelievable heights no one on his team can match. Kyrie was absolutely amazing last year, but LeBron was just on another level.

Good post. Kobe even raised the question of whether Pau should have been MVP when he got the award after Game 7. Speaking of which, Kobe was awful in G7. Went 6-24, 2 assists, and 4 turnovers. But 15 FTA of course. One reason I never liked Kobe's game as much is because he was very ref-dependent.
 

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