LeBron James

[LeeBuckeye]

I really don't like when the number of titles is the defense of the better conference because that's not a metric to determine the actual strength of the entire conference. In fact, it can be argued that the easier conference is more likely to win the finals because it's lower number of powerful teams makes for a less tiring road to the gold.

Look at the overall number of wins per seed in the east vs west at that time. It's a big difference.
The West, in LeBron's career, has been far superior in terms of depth than the East has. I'm not going to get into the Spurs/Warriors "greatest of all time" debate because given my point above, it's not very relevant.

My point about tanking was to contradict the earlier point made about expansion teams. I'd argue there are as many teams at that level of awful now as there were in Jordan's time. Sure, they aren't expansion teams, but the teams all-out tanking are just as bad, if not worse than expansion teams.

Tom Brady plays in a division with the Jets, Bills and Dolphins. For some reason this never gets brought up and for good reason: Tom and LeBron have no impact on how the Browns or the Knicks mismanage their teams every season.

For the record, MJ's scoring and steals numbers were better while LeBron had the edge everywhere else (Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, FG%)

 

[Tubs023]

Score from anywhere except the unshortened 3 point line, you mean. Do you watch current NBA games and seriously think to yourself these guys aren't handchecking? How else do they have a prayer of even stopping LeBron. I'm pretty sure MJ would be a lot more concerned about the zone rules than the handchecking considering be begged David Stern not to implement them.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

"But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did."

Yeaaaa, I'm not buying it. LeBron already gets flagrantly fouled as it is, and there's no pre-help due to the illegal defense rules. Put him out there in a parking lot by himself against Thunder Dan instead of Jimmy Butler and see how anyone in that era would be able to handle him. It would be a massacre

lolol....Thunder Dan...That is a good one. If you were using him as a defensive reference their are much better players to use such as Gary Peyton, Alvin Robertson or even Mitch Richmond which were better defensive players than Butler. A zone in the pros will get eaten up alive in any era that's why teams don't use it today. If LeBron had a consistent midrange jump shot in his prime their would be no argument because LeBron would have at least five rings instead of three and that Dallas situation would have never happened which will always be a huge black mark on his legacy.

 

[Heej]

lolol....Thunder Dan...That is a good one. If you were using him as a defensive reference their are much better players to use such as Gary Peyton, Alvin Robertson or even Mitch Richmond which were better defensive players than Butler. A zone in the pros will get eaten up alive in any era that's why teams don't use it today. If LeBron had a consistent midrange jump shot in his prime their would be no argument because LeBron would have at least five rings instead of three and that Dallas situation would have never happened which will always be a huge black mark on his legacy.

That's funny because we consistently play with zone rules now. MJs favorite move was driving from the left wing and pulling up at the nail, in the modern NBA there's guys guarding the opposite wing player already stationed at the nail. Back in the day they couldn't be that far away from their man without fully committing to MJ so they were always a step away at the edge of the top of the key circle.

Actually I can tell you're talking out of your ass because LeBron's midrange jumper was at his apex during the season they lost to Dallas. What you get with a consistent midrange jumper shot against zone rules with 2 non-spacing bigs is a 45% TS, especially because LeBron was the elbow facilitator that series feeding a cutting Dwyane Wade as the defense loaded up the paint on him and allowed him to shoot his midrange.

You claim to have written a thesis on the competitiveness of the NBA throughout the years and somehow ignorantly came to the conclusion that the level of competition is stable throughout the years despite the 90s being an era plagued with over expansion and no international talent.

Lemme guess, your conclusion was that players stayed in college longer back then so everyone was better all around? News flash, after 6 or 7 years everyone's development curve equals out because the NBA is much better at developing talent than college because it's a full time job. This is exactly why guys like Draymond Green or Curry are able to develop their skills at a rate far what eclipsing anyone was able to in the 90s.

Your statements lack nuance or substance, and your hand-waving away of zone rules does little to negate their efficacy. Ooh almost had it! You gotta be quicker than that!

 

[Cassity14]

Tom Brady plays in a division with the Jets, Bills and Dolphins. For some reason this never gets brought up and for good reason: Tom and LeBron have no impact on how the Browns or the Knicks mismanage their teams every season.

For the record, MJ's scoring and steals numbers were better while LeBron had the edge everywhere else (Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, FG%)

This is a really poor comparison for a number of reasons:

Tom Brady does not play against the entire NFL every single season, let alone playing everyone in the AFC 3+ times.

The NFL playoffs are determined with much more weight on divisional results, specifically when looking at how many of a team's games each season come against their own division.

Tom Brady needs to play and win 2 playoff games per season to reach the Super Bowl. An NBA player needs to win 12, but can play as many as 21 games before reaching the NBA finals (which is then another 4-7 games). Repeated competition against quality opponents certainly has an impact in the NBA postseason that isn't present in the NFL postseason.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I see great arguments for both but the edge has to go to MJ for several reasons. First MJ had no weakness. Offensively he could score from anywhere on the court and make his free throws especially during closing moments. Defensively he is considered arguably top 15 of all time even winning defensive player of the year. MJ's peak season is better than Lebrons peak by which Mike averaged 32 8 8 shooting .54 from field along with 3 steals per game. Also one has to take in consideration how much the rules have changed. If people were not able to hand check Mike he probably would have averaged 40 plus points per game shooting at a much higher clip than LeBron.

Oh Good Lord, the hand checking thing again. Look, think about it, do you think that James would rather play in a league that allowed hand checking but did not allow a zone defense? Again, think about it. James is one of the most physically gifted players in the history of the game meaning hand check him at your own peril. Imagine HAVING to play James man up the whole time. He would have flourished in the Jordan times. There is no doubt about that.

 

[Heej]

An interesting post I read comparing the 2 is that the aesthetic of Michael just looks more like a dominating player when he's having a bad game because he's taking (and missing) so many shots. You go through some of MJs series' against guys like the Knicks and Heat and there's a murderers row of awful games where he's going like 12/30 and other such absurd shooting lines. You see it too when you watch his games and see his absolutely nutty shot selection. It really makes you appreciate the surgical precision with which LeBron plays.

LeBron's bad games are much lower in the shot count but he's doing more like rebounding and facilitating which doesn't stand out as much as simply taking a greater volume of shots. MJ had clear psychological shortcomings rooted in over aggressiveness and reluctance to involve teammates. Let's not deify the guy.

He played the KD role from the last finals. Pippen was always the primary facilitator that ran the offense and the defensive coordinator that barked out coverages. Much like what Steph and Draymond did for KD which allowed him to focus on individual scoring and defending.

LeBron's the only player in NBA history to take on all 3 roles for a team, other than perhaps Larry Bird. There's just no comparison when you actually apply nuance and context when determining who's carrying a greater mental burden.

 

[Tubs023]

That's funny because we consistently play with zone rules now. MJs favorite move was driving from the left wing and pulling up at the nail, in the modern NBA there's guys guarding the opposite wing player already stationed at the nail. Back in the day they couldn't be that far away from their man without fully committing to MJ so they were always a step away at the edge of the top of the key circle.

Actually I can tell you're talking out of your ass because LeBron's midrange jumper was at his apex during the season they lost to Dallas. What you get with a consistent midrange jumper shot against zone rules with 2 non-spacing bigs is a 45% TS, especially because LeBron was the elbow facilitator that series feeding a cutting Dwyane Wade as the defense loaded up the paint on him and allowed him to shoot his midrange.

You claim to have written a thesis on the competitiveness of the NBA throughout the years and somehow ignorantly came to the conclusion that the level of competition is stable throughout the years despite the 90s being an era plagued with over expansion and no international talent.

Lemme guess, your conclusion was that players stayed in college longer back then so everyone was better all around? News flash, after 6 or 7 years everyone's development curve equals out because the NBA is much better at developing talent than college because it's a full time job. This is exactly why guys like Draymond Green or Curry are able to develop their skills at a rate far what eclipsing anyone was able to in the 90s.

Your statements lack nuance or substance, and your hand-waving away of zone rules does little to negate their efficacy. Ooh almost had it! You gotta be quicker than that!

I don't mind debating but personal attacks are not cool. I try to keep the wording down because most people don't read it anyways and I can write pages on this topic but this is not the place to do so.

In regards to LeBron I was not arguing about his regular season. LeBron continuously have to remind himself that he has a jumper and have faith in it. During that Dallas series amongst other things he lost faith in it hence his 4th quarter collapses. Having a favorite move does not negate how good MJ was in all moves. We all know how Mike mastered the post up which drew the double teams . He could either score on that double team or dish it for the assist or hockey assist. I do understand teams are practically a step away from playing a zone. However the Jordan Rules were a better option and much harder to beat and he performed well against it once other members of his squad performed up to their standard. Lastly I believe the NBA is the best teacher but it is better when the fundamentals are already there. Their were better versions of Draymond back in the day and Curry could shoot the heck out of the ball before he played one NBA game.

Their is no facet of the game where MJ could lose a game let alone a series. Their are several facets of the game by which LeBron can lose a game which also led to a lost of a finals series.

 

[Tubs023]

An interesting post I read comparing the 2 is that the aesthetic of Michael just looks more like a dominating player when he's having a bad game because he's taking (and missing) so many shots. You go through some of MJs series' against guys like the Knicks and Heat and there's a murderers row of awful games where he's going like 12/30 and other such absurd shooting lines. You see it too when you watch his games and see his absolutely nutty shot selection. It really makes you appreciate the surgical precision with which LeBron plays.

LeBron's bad games are much lower in the shot count but he's doing more like rebounding and facilitating which doesn't stand out as much as simply taking a greater volume of shots. MJ had clear psychological shortcomings rooted in over aggressiveness and reluctance to involve teammates. Let's not deify the guy.

He played the KD role from the last finals. Pippen was always the primary facilitator that ran the offense and the defensive coordinator that barked out coverages. Much like what Steph and Draymond did for KD which allowed him to focus on individual scoring and defending.

LeBron's the only player in NBA history to take on all 3 roles for a team, other than perhaps Larry Bird. There's just no comparison when you actually apply nuance and context when determining who's carrying a greater mental burden.

I agree with mostly everything you are saying. However I would take what you call a psychological shortcoming which results in Mike taking the game winning shot versus dishing it to other guys who are far inferior because they may be open which most times than not result in a missed shot.

 

[MediumBaller]

Their is no facet of the game where MJ could lose a game let alone a series. Their are several facets of the game by which LeBron can lose a game which also led to a lost of a finals series.

What?

 

[CTownSportsFan]

I agree with mostly everything you are saying. However I would take what you call a psychological shortcoming which results in Mike taking the game winning shot versus dishing it to other guys who are far inferior because they may be open which most times than not result in a missed shot.

Far inferior in what regards ?

 

[LeeBuckeye]

This is a really poor comparison for a number of reasons:

Tom Brady does not play against the entire NFL every single season, let alone playing everyone in the AFC 3+ times.

The NFL playoffs are determined with much more weight on divisional results, specifically when looking at how many of a team's games each season come against their own division.

Tom Brady needs to play and win 2 playoff games per season to reach the Super Bowl. An NBA player needs to win 12, but can play as many as 21 games before reaching the NBA finals (which is then another 4-7 games). Repeated competition against quality opponents certainly has an impact in the NBA postseason that isn't present in the NFL postseason.

You missed my point entirely but no point in derailing this conversation with NFL vs NBA talk. I actually agreed with most of your points about the West being much more dominant than the East (They had Kobe, Duncan, Nowitzki, CP3, Nash, Young Thunder team in the early 10's which is insane # of HOF players w/ great supporting casts). Overall head to head is a better indicator of conference superiority as opposed to looking at titles won by each conference.

 

[Tubs023]

What?

Free throws and jump shots. Series and games have been lost because he missed key free throws and no faith in jumper which makes him indecisive especially at the end of games. He had for the most part overcame the latter. Their have been games in series where LeBron's mentals were questioned.

 

[RuanuLaw]

*clicks on thread, ends up seeing pages upon pages of the LBJ vs MJ debate in full-rage mode*...

 

[6.19.2016]

Tom Brady plays in a division with the Jets, Bills and Dolphins. For some reason this never gets brought up and for good reason: Tom and LeBron have no impact on how the Browns or the Knicks mismanage their teams every season.

For the record, MJ's scoring and steals numbers were better while LeBron had the edge everywhere else (Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, FG%)

People do bring up "buh teh AFC leest" with Brady, but he has about the same record against the rest of the league, despite having to play some extra 1st-place games with other AFC divisions most every year.

The funny thing is that he does almost always have one of the weakest schedules in the league overall by win %, even with those extra 1st place games, largely because the Pats cannot play themselves, and the 1st place division record isn't always predictive year-to-year.

It looks like the NBA playoff alignment debate might be coming to a head finally; I'd be ok with bringing back the old "Central" and "Midwest" divisions and having them have re-seed potential, to keep coastal travel down. I also think the conference balance might take care of itself once Seattle and/or Vegas get expansion teams and push the Pels/Twolves/Griz into the East, although a Seattle team might become relevant quicker than most expansion teams if late-career Durant were to sign there, as he has hinted at.

 

[Tubs023]

Far inferior in what regards ?

All NBA players are not built for that final movement. From a psychological standpoint they are not there. I rather a player that is built for that moment create and take that shot rather than give it to a guy that may be more slightly open but just does not have it in them to conquer that moment. LeBron said it himself years ago that he wish he had that not afraid attitude Michael and Kobe has. Because LeBron is so talented despite fear he is able to come through many times when needed. Many players who recognizes that LeBron is the better all around player would rather face him than Kobe. I look at it like this. An elephant is a more dominant force than a lion. However would you want to be in a cage with a elephant or lion?