LeBron: "We hated Clevelanders growing up"

[doughboy90650]

 

[ButterMPancakes]

You just wasted your time to gather a bunch of evidence that does nothing to further prove your case.

It's no secret that Howard's efficiency is at a high level and his volume is at a low level, there is no reason to think that if his volume went up that his efficiency would stay the same. If Howards volume were to go up, it would be a result of him attempting more shots in isolation situations and post moves rather than achieving the unreal TS% he gets from the easy buckets.

Your stance is that he could dominate the league like Shaq, but you're simply wrong in that regard. One of the reasons Shaq was such a force was because that if you needed a bucket, if you needed points, you could give Big Fella the ball and let him go to the work. The same has not held true for Dwight Howard and it's been blatantly evident in watching him struggle mightily against guys that Prime Shaq would have dropped 40 on without sweating(okay, maybe not without sweating :chuckles:...doesn't take much for Shaq to sweat :chuckles

Dwight Howard reminds me a lot of Alonzo Mourning, except he doesn't have to go up against prime Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, David Robinson, and so on and so forth which makes him the best Center in the league by default. It's a disservice to Shaq and how great he was to try and blame Dwight Howard's lack of Shaq-esque numbers and production on a few rules and Rashard Lewis.

How does it not? It shows that his efficiency did not drop significantly with a higher usage rating. The 18 times his USG% was above 28%, he only shot below the average TS% twice.



I don't think you really understand the impact of those rules on the game today, and it's about as huge as hand checking.


Howard wouldn't have been as dominant back then, but today, I can't think of a lot of centers that would be able to contain Howard physically as he lowers his shoulders and bullies his way through. If he's able to average 18pts on 60%+ shooting, it's not a farce to think he could average 25pts on 50-55% shooting, ESPECIALLY with the rule changes and with the amount of weak centers there are in today's league.

Hakeem himself was never a 30ppg scorer, and was nearing the 20-25ish ppg during his prime. He deferred to teammates. Keep in mind I'm only comparing Howard's situation to Hakeem's, in no way am I comparing the two (but you'll probably try to make it that way).



As I mentioned before, if guys like Ray Allen, KG, Paul Pierce, Hakeem, even Shaq (when he went to Miami), Moses Malone, the inevitable Miami trio, Pau Gasol, and so on, ALL suffered drops in point production after joining one or two other volume shooters, why is it so tough to believe it's not the same for Howard? ESPECIALLY if those rules went back to how they were back then? Shit, Shaq LAST YEAR had a higher USG% than Howard, and it's not because he was the better scorer.

 

[futuristxen]

fact is we've never seen Dwight do what Shaq did. And you can hedge on the stats all you want, but the naked eye check is that his offensive game isn't nearly as impactful. You may disagree about the reasons, but the facts are pretty plain to see for anyone watching the games.

Kedrick Perkins could not have guarded a prime Shaq one on one with no double. I mean he barely could guard 39 year old Shaq from the looks of it.

The thing that you can see watching Dwight vs. Shaq is that Shaq has had vastly superior footwork all through his career. Even as a rookie, he had post moves. A lot of them may have ended in just dunks, but his footwork in the post was really good. and he came into the league with that baby hook that Dwight still doesn't have.

Shaq used to put up 50 on David Robinson. I don't think Dwight could put up 35.

 

[ButterMPancakes]

fact is we've never seen Dwight do what Shaq did. And you can hedge on the stats all you want, but the naked eye check is that his offensive game isn't nearly as impactful. You may disagree about the reasons, but the facts are pretty plain to see for anyone watching the games.

Kedrick Perkins could not have guarded a prime Shaq one on one with no double. I mean he barely could guard 39 year old Shaq from the looks of it.

The thing that you can see watching Dwight vs. Shaq is that Shaq has had vastly superior footwork all through his career. Even as a rookie, he had post moves. A lot of them may have ended in just dunks, but his footwork in the post was really good. and he came into the league with that baby hook that Dwight still doesn't have.

Shaq used to put up 50 on David Robinson. I don't think Dwight could put up 35.

Fact is we've never seen Dwight play without those rules. Also, you regard the naked eye as fact, vs. statistical evidence? That's wonderful. You have also probably watched all 82 games last year, correct? Because as far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty sure I've watched more of Howard than anyone else in here. The facts are that even in games with a higher usage rating, his efficiency doesn't drop much. Fact is that he's on a team with two other players who used to put up 20 attempts a game, fact is that every single player who has had to go/join another volume shooter, his production in points took a hit, fact is that he produced more points per possession in the post than guys like Kaman, Bogut, Boozer, and etc, guys who are often praised for their "post game".

Kendrick Perkins "held" Howard to more points than his regular season average, what's your point?

Next time come up with a better lie. Shaq never dropped 50 on David Robinson. Shaq never dropped 40 on David Robinson.


Again, Howard wouldn't have to be as good as Shaq was to dominate like Shaq did. I hate to be redundant, but it's incredible how some of you distort that into thinking I'm saying he would be as good as Shaq. Shit, Howard could have the offensive game of Emeka Okafor, but with his physical dominance, he could still be the best center in the league with those rule changes.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Howard wouldn't have been as dominant back then, but today, I can't think of a lot of centers that would be able to contain Howard physically as he lowers his shoulders and bullies his way through. If he's able to average 18pts on 60%+ shooting, it's not a farce to think he could average 25pts on 50-55% shooting, ESPECIALLY with the rule changes and with the amount of weak centers there are in today's league.

Since when is 25 points on 50-55% shooting "dominating like Shaq did".

Shaq routinely put up seasons of 27-30 PPG shooting 58-60% from the floor.

Just end the Shaq v Dwight comparison now. I'm still sticking with my Alonzo Mourning comparison.

Again, you still haven't responded to my assertion that Howard is not a guy who you can count on for a bucket when you truly need one, and like it or not, extrapolating USG% based off of flawed and biased assumptions doesn't help you in that argument at all.

When things got sketchy in L.A., or with Hakeem in Houston, it was simple...slow it down...reset...toss it to the big fella, let's go to work.

With Orlando, it's "we can't toss it to the big fella because he's going to turn it over or sling it off the backboard at 125MPH....here you go Vince...:chuckles: "

 

[ButterMPancakes]

Since when is 25 points on 50-55% shooting "dominating like Shaq did".

Shaq routinely put up seasons of 27-30 PPG shooting 58-60% from the floor.

Just end the Shaq v Dwight comparison now. I'm still sticking with my Alonzo Mourning comparison.

Again, you still haven't responded to my assertion that Howard is not a guy who you can count on for a bucket when you truly need one, and like it or not, extrapolating USG% based off of flawed and biased assumptions doesn't help you in that argument at all.

When things got sketchy in L.A., or with Hakeem in Houston, it was simple...slow it down...reset...toss it to the big fella, let's go to work.

With Orlando, it's "we can't toss it to the big fella because he's going to turn it over or sling it off the backboard at 125MPH....here you go Vince...:chuckles: "

That's actually very wrong. The biggest problem with Howard having the ball during crunch time is because of his poor free throw shooting and how much he gets fouled.Howard's foul drawing is nearly 57% during crunch time, a number Shaq has never even gotten close to (as far as I can check, didn't go back any further than the 2002-2003 season). When the team is having problems, however, Howard becomes the #1 option, as was evident in the Boston series, as well as most games that you pretended to watch.



This isn't a Shaq v Dwight comparison, although you keep making it to be in order to look correct.

The 25 point on 50-55% is something Howard can do without the rules being changed back. It's hard to grasp how dominant the guy could really be with those rules changed back. If he's breaking records now, without being allowed to use all his strength, I can't even imagine how he'd be if he was allowed.

 

[QuadrupleDouble]

I know he's your dude, and we most certainly tried to put Lebron in the Jordan discussion (I don't care if he wins 10, he'll never be considered the GOAT now), but you can stop with the Dwight even being in the same discussion with Shaq nonsence.

Nobody's buying it buy you and other Magic fans. Shaq played against too much talent and he was still tearing up the league just a few years ago.

Although I do have to respect you guys because Shaq left you, not in the same disrespectful fashion as Lebron, but you guys had talent around him and he bolted.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

That's actually very wrong. The biggest problem with Howard having the ball during crunch time is because of his poor free throw shooting and how much he gets fouled.Howard's foul drawing is nearly 57% during crunch time, a number Shaq has never even gotten close to (as far as I can check, didn't go back any further than the 2002-2003 season).

It wasn't just a crunch time/4th quarter argument, it also applies to the flow of the game and key moments throughout the entire game.

But since you brought up the crunch time aspect, you're just proving my point further. Howard may draw a higher percentage of fouls but O Neal MORE THAN DOUBLED his production(and this is just the 02-03 season, which is the LOW end of the spectrum as far as Shaq goes....I guarantee you that if we went to years prior to that Shaq's numbers would be even better) and easily topped Howard's crunch time efficiency by almost 4% which is a pretty large separation.

When the team is having problems, however, Howard becomes the #1 option, as was evident in the Boston series, as well as most games that you pretended to watch.

How exactly does that support your argument? When things got tough in the Boston series it may have been evident that he became their number one option, I'll agree with that, and it was also evident that he is NOT a legitimate number one option because he obviously didn't do enough consistent damage to Boston to put a dent in them.

I watched plenty of Orlando games, I have no need to pretend that I watched them. Not like it makes me look any better, oh, look at the cool guy who wasted all kinds of time watching the Orlando Magic and subjecting himself to the torture that is watching Vince Carter play I'm giving my opinion, which at this point is a hell of a lot more objective than yours. I think Dwight is a great player but I'm not oblivious to the glaring holes in his game and no about of stat extrapolation bundled with a book full of excuses is going to change the facts about his weaknesses.

This isn't a Shaq v Dwight comparison, although you keep making it to be in order to look correct.

Oh, it isn't? Did I "pretend" that you posted this as well?

. Oh, and Dwight Howard into Shaquille O'Neal v2

The 25 point on 50-55% is something Howard can do without the rules being changed back. It's hard to grasp how dominant the guy could really be with those rules changed back. If he's breaking records now, without being allowed to use all his strength, I can't even imagine how he'd be if he was allowed.

I'll believe it when I see it. If Dwight Howard could be that much of an offensive force we would have seen it consistently at this point and we haven't. I'm not buying the garbage that its' Rashard Lewis' fault that Dwight Howard doesn't dominate, if that's the case Otis Smith should be fired for giving Rashard Lewis 120 million dollars to handicap his franchise player. Come on now. Hell, Dwight should be singing Rashard Lewis' praises for staying as far away from the paint as possible to give Howard the entire area to work around which makes the game a lot easier for him.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

I know he's your dude, and we most certainly tried to put Lebron in the Jordan discussion (I don't care if he wins 10, he'll never be considered the GOAT now), but you can stop with the Dwight even being in the same discussion with Shaq nonsence.

Nobody's buying it buy you and other Magic fans. Shaq played against too much talent and he was still tearing up the league just a few years ago.

Although I do have to respect you guys because Shaq left you, not in the same disrespectful fashion as Lebron, but you guys had talent around him and he bolted.

Orlando really shouldn't get any pity for Shaq leaving, he probably would have stayed had they offered him the same money as the Lakers, but they first tried to lowball him and never offered enough money to keep him.

As much as I dislike Thome and guys like that, I have come to expect guys leaving for a paycheck, if you want them, you should be willing to pay them.

 

[ButterMPancakes]

I know he's your dude, and we most certainly tried to put Lebron in the Jordan discussion (I don't care if he wins 10, he'll never be considered the GOAT now), but you can stop with the Dwight even being in the same discussion with Shaq nonsence.

Nobody's buying it buy you and other Magic fans. Shaq played against too much talent and he was still tearing up the league just a few years ago.

Although I do have to respect you guys because Shaq left you, not in the same disrespectful fashion as Lebron, but you guys had talent around him and he bolted.

Why do people continue to think I'm comparing the two? I'm merely saying Howard could dominate today's league like Shaq did given those rules, not that he could dominate like Shaq did during the time Shaq played. This is EXTREMELY different. Oh, and while Shaq trashing the city after he left made the whole thing pretty awful, I personally thought the T-MAC deal was far worse. Not because he was better (because he wasn't), but because he demanded a trade and was pretty much saying that if the team didn't draft Okafor and made blockbuster moves, we'd see him tank some more.

But since you brought up the crunch time aspect, you're just proving my point further. Howard may draw a higher percentage of fouls but O Neal MORE THAN DOUBLED his production(and this is just the 02-03 season, which is the LOW end of the spectrum as far as Shaq goes....I guarantee you that if we went to years prior to that Shaq's numbers would be even better) and easily topped Howard's crunch time efficiency by almost 4% which is a pretty large separation.

Obviously... because Howard got fouled far more often and being the bad FT shooter that he is, produced less.

How exactly does that support your argument? When things got tough in the Boston series it may have been evident that he became their number one option, I'll agree with that, and it was also evident that he is NOT a legitimate number one option because he obviously didn't do enough consistent damage to Boston to put a dent in them.

Oh, don't even go there, especially since asides those 2 awful games Howard has, he was completely unstoppable in the other 4. The team not winning certainly had little to do with Howard, and more to do with Wince being awful and the team not being able to get stops. You should know better than to pinpoint a team's downfall on a guy because lost. Stop listening to Mark Jackson so much. What's next? Orlando got swept by the Rockets because Hakeem was THAT much better than Shaq?

Oh, it isn't? Did I "pretend" that you posted this as well?

Exaggeration and well as different context could have one believe I meant in regards to their "acting" careers. I'm pretty sure I clarified myself but you continued to harp on it.

I'll believe it when I see it. If Dwight Howard could be that much of an offensive force we would have seen it consistently at this point and we haven't. I'm not buying the garbage that its' Rashard Lewis' fault that Dwight Howard doesn't dominate, if that's the case Otis Smith should be fired for giving Rashard Lewis 120 million dollars to handicap his franchise player. Come on now. Hell, Dwight should be singing Rashard Lewis' praises for staying as far away from the paint as possible to give Howard the entire area to work around which makes the game a lot easier for him.

It's not because of Rashard Lewis. It's because of Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter and partly Jameer. I don't know how many more examples I'm gonna have to give you to prove that teams with a high number of volume shooters will have its individuals suffer in PPG. Regardless of that, Howard, for his age, has indeed dominated. Holds the NBA record for field goal percentage on a 4 game series sweep, first player since Wilt Chamberlain to score at least 30 points and 15 rebounds while being perfect from the field (11-11), first player to lead the league in rebounding, blocks, and FG%, and I could go on but I understand you're talking about dominating offensively, so I'll stop.

Howard will probably never drop high offensive numbers per season as long as he is playing with another two volume shooters and a "shoot first pg", however, if those games against Boston are any indication of how next season will be, I'm fairly certain he'll have plenty more games dropping 30+. Doing it every game wouldn't be good for the team, however. Just because Howard isn't getting 20 shots a game, it doesn't mean the team is suffering from it, especially with a guy like Wince, who's completely useless if he's not scoring. There has to be a balance, like there was in Boston, Houston, Spurs, and etc. Were Hakeem/Allen/KG/Pierce/Duncan/Manu and company "handicapped" because they didn't shoot as much?



Again, I don't think you understand how athletically superior Howard is to the rest of the league. With the rules being reverted back he wouldn't even need a hook shot.

 

[QuadrupleDouble]

Orlando really shouldn't get any pity for Shaq leaving, he probably would have stayed had they offered him the same money as the Lakers, but they first tried to lowball him and never offered enough money to keep him.

As much as I dislike Thome and guys like that, I have come to expect guys leaving for a paycheck, if you want them, you should be willing to pay them.

Didn't know that. I always thought he just wanted to be in the bright lights of LA for his "acting."

Who the fuck lowballs Shaq in his prime?

 

[ButterMPancakes]

Didn't know that. I always thought he just wanted to be in the bright lights of LA for his "acting."

Who the fuck lowballs Shaq in his prime?

Jerry Buss was pretty much cleaning house to get Shaq, and at first Orlando's offer was pretty weak, but eventually they offered $99mil, but Buss was able to get rid of another guy and offer $121mil, but it was pretty evident he was leaving well before that, as more and more he'd send out some awful signals about the place and soon enough he bolted from the "dried up pond"

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Why do people continue to think I'm comparing the two? I'm merely saying Howard could dominate today's league like Shaq did given those rules, not that he could dominate like Shaq did during the time Shaq played. This is EXTREMELY different. Oh, and while Shaq trashing the city after he left made the whole thing pretty awful, I personally thought the T-MAC deal was far worse. Not because he was better (because he wasn't), but because he demanded a trade and was pretty much saying that if the team didn't draft Okafor and made blockbuster moves, we'd see him tank some more.

And I'm merely disagreeing with you and I think you're giving Shaq's physical abilities too much credit and his skills not enough.

Obviously... because Howard got fouled far more often and being the bad FT shooter that he is, produced less.

Does that make up for the nearly 4% difference in FG%? And I am too lazy to do the math, but I highly doubt the difference in foul % makes up for a total of 18 points per 48 minutes which is the total separation between the two in crunch time.

Oh, don't even go there, especially since asides those 2 awful games Howard has, he was completely unstoppable in the other 4. The team not winning certainly had little to do with Howard, and more to do with Wince being awful and the team not being able to get stops. You should know better than to pinpoint a team's downfall on a guy because lost. Stop listening to Mark Jackson so much. What's next? Orlando got swept by the Rockets because Hakeem was THAT much better than Shaq?

Howard had 3 games of 30, 32, and 28, hardly "unstoppable", I guess maybe for Dwight's standards, and in one of those games he only had 8 rebounds(loss). By the way, 2 of those 3 were losses. Only one of those games were truly "dominant", and even then you're pushing the envelope of the word. Shaq probably would have dropped 45.

Hell, just for fun, 2001 Shaq game by game stats during that playoff run

Goes like this (Game/Points/Rebounds)

Portland

G1- 24/20
G2- 32/12 (also 5 assists)
G3- 25/15

Sac
G1- 44/21(4 assists, 7 blocks)
G2- 43/20
G3- 21/18
G4- 25/10

SAS
G1- 28/11
G2- 19/14(4 assists)
G3- 35/17
G4- 26/10

Phi
G1- 44/20 (5 assists)
G2- 28/20 (9 assists, 8 blocks)
G3- 30/12
G4- 34/14 (5 assists)
G5- 29/13

F-U-C-K-I-N-G B-E-A-S-T

Regardless of that, Howard, for his age, has indeed dominated. Holds the NBA record for field goal percentage on a 4 game series sweep

With a 6'9 power forward guarding him...brb going to get some white out for my "greatest centers ever" list. I'll put Dwight at #2. Where does Al Horford go, is he at least on the short list of candidates?

first player since Wilt Chamberlain to score at least 30 points and 15 rebounds while being perfect from the field (11-11),

It was a nice game and it's a fun stat to recite, but ultimately means nothing. I don't have enough limbs to count how many games Shaq has had that I'd take over that particular performance.

first player to lead the league in rebounding, blocks, and FG%, and I could go on but I understand you're talking about dominating offensively, so I'll stop.

Howard is no doubt the best center in the league and an excellent player and future hall of famer and an awesome defender. He's the best center of this era, if he played in the 90's he'd be Alonzo Mourning, if Alnzo Mourning player in the NBA now under the 90's rules him and Howard still wouldn't be able to take the league by storm the way Shaquille did. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Shaq is one of the top 10 players ever to play. Howard is amazing and would be excellent and more dominant than he is now with a few rule tweaks, but he wouldn't be Shaq. Let's not disrespect Shaq here.

Howard will probably never drop high offensive numbers per season as long as he is playing with another two volume shooters and a "shoot first pg", however, if those games against Boston are any indication of how next season will be, I'm fairly certain he'll have plenty more games dropping 30+. Doing it every game wouldn't be good for the team, however. Just because Howard isn't getting 20 shots a game, it doesn't mean the team is suffering from it, especially with a guy like Wince, who's completely useless if he's not scoring. There has to be a balance, like there was in Boston, Houston, Spurs, and etc. Were Hakeem/Allen/KG/Pierce/Duncan/Manu and company "handicapped" because they didn't shoot as much?

At this point in Dwight's career, let's not embarrass him by trying to compare him to Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon. Those guys were the offensive alpha dogs of their teams without question.

Again, I don't think you understand how athletically superior Howard is to the rest of the league. With the rules being reverted back he wouldn't even need a hook shot.

Shaq did and Shaq was the greatest physical force we've ever seen in the league. you always need a hook shot. You won't dunk every time no matter how big and athletic you are. Shaq was the master of using clever and underrated moves and then following them by dunking on your face, but the reason he was able to dunk a lot of the time was because of the nifty work he put in before hand, not because of the bulldozer imitation(though he did use that too at times)

 

[Man Called X]

Greatest comparison ever. Dwight Howard is Alonzo Mourning with less offensive game. That's realistically it. There's nothing wrong with that. Zo was a solid player in his own right, but compared to Shaq? Get the fuck out of here.

 

[JSS2306]

Hakeem was the greatest center this game has ever seen IMO.

His footwork, his DreamShake, his mid range, his defense made him the best all around center for a guy of his size bar none.

... and he swept Shaq and a great all around team in the finals.

As for Howard?

Pft.