• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Moore's Law and the power of exponential advancement

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Great example.

Image recognition applications and natural language processing applications also employ AI these days.

Deep learning systems use AI and neural networks for problem solving.

AI does not necessarily entail consciousness and sentience; but when and where it does, and that is human consciousness and sentience, then yes, one would obviously consider these to be living entities with equal rights just as any human being would have.

How can they possibly possess human consciousness and sentience - they are not humans, yes?

The idea of giving "conscious" AI "rights" is a little perplexing to me.
 
How can they possibly possess human consciousness and sentience - they are not humans, yes?

What defines being human, Mar?

The idea of giving "conscious" AI "rights" is a little perplexing to me.

I get that.. let me try to explain a bit further...

Scientifically, you and I are a collection of cells that interoperate with one another to form a complete organism. Within your brain you have literally billions of these cells that form what's called a neural network; or in other words, a network of neurons, that gives you, the organism, an ability to do computational work. We call this ability to solve problems intelligence.

Your brain works with sensory inputs like your eyes, eyes, nose, sense of touch, and also has data stores (again within the neural network) to retrieve previous experiences from. We can use the combination of problem solving, sensory input, and memory to learn and act rather than simply reacting to stimuli. We call this collective ability cognition.

At a certain point; our organism evolved to such an extent that the degree to which we are intelligence, emotion, cognition has manifested a conscious mind. Or, in other words, consciousness is an emergent quality of a specific set of qualities within your brain. Consciousness is a thing that exists on the platform that is your brain, is emergent from it, and is somewhat distinct from the specific functions the brain would perform on a lower level.

Beyond this though, we really don't understand what the consciousness is. We have no idea beyond the basic understanding of how our brains work; which doesn't begin to address some of these questions - many of which are philosophical (at this point).

But with this basic (and incomplete) understanding of the human brain and human consciousness we can start to tackle the larger question of an artificial (human) consciousness.

So Mar... thinking about the structure of your brain; let's engage in a thought experiment (Ship of Theseus):

Let's say we develop an artificial neuron, complete with wetware axons, dendrites, etc; essentially a drop-in replacement for your biological neurons.

And let's say you sign up for neuron replacement therapy; which would be a new medical technique to replace your biological brain with these artificial neurons.

You go in for your first appointment with the doctor; he sits you down on the table; pulls out a long needle, and injects a fluid (a suspension of these nanomachines) into your skull. You feel some pressure, and you get a bit of a headache but, other than that you're fine. He tells you to go home and get some rest and don't worry about it..

You repeat the treatment the following week; and every week thereafter for two years; 104 treatments total.

After your 104th treatment, you say "see you next week doc" and he informs you that you're done. There's nothing more for him to do. You ask him what he means and he tells you, you no longer have any biological neurons to replace, your brain is entirely artificial running on billions of small computational devices (the artificial neurons).

You think to yourself, well, am I still the same person?

You never noticed yourself changing... nothing really happened. Yet your brain is gone... completely. Yet you still exist.

The reason this is the case is because you, Mar, are not your brain; you are the emergent consciousness that has manifested itself from your brain. The brain is essentially the PC, yet your consciousness is the highly customized and tricked out operating system running on top of it.

Now... take this concept and think about it from another angle.

If the artificial neurons didn't exist in physical space as you might expect, but instead were simulated in a virtual machine; would that make any difference?

Let me know if you have any questions.. ;)
 
What defines being human, Mar?



I get that.. let me try to explain a bit further...

Scientifically, you and I are a collection of cells that interoperate with one another to form a complete organism. Within your brain you have literally billions of these cells that form what's called a neural network; or in other words, a network of neurons, that gives you, the organism, an ability to do computational work. We call this ability to solve problems intelligence.

Your brain works with sensory inputs like your eyes, eyes, nose, sense of touch, and also has data stores (again within the neural network) to retrieve previous experiences from. We can use the combination of problem solving, sensory input, and memory to learn and act rather than simply reacting to stimuli. We call this collective ability cognition.

At a certain point; our organism evolved to such an extent that the degree to which we are intelligence, emotion, cognition has manifested a conscious mind. Or, in other words, consciousness is an emergent quality of a specific set of qualities within your brain. Consciousness is a thing that exists on the platform that is your brain, is emergent from it, and is somewhat distinct from the specific functions the brain would perform on a lower level.

Beyond this though, we really don't understand what the consciousness is. We have no idea beyond the basic understanding of how our brains work; which doesn't begin to address some of these questions - many of which are philosophical (at this point).

But with this basic (and incomplete) understanding of the human brain and human consciousness we can start to tackle the larger question of an artificial (human) consciousness.

So Mar... thinking about the structure of your brain; let's engage in a thought experiment (Ship of Theseus):

Let's say we develop an artificial neuron, complete with wetware axons, dendrites, etc; essentially a drop-in replacement for your biological neurons.

And let's say you sign up for neuron replacement therapy; which would be a new medical technique to replace your biological brain with these artificial neurons.

You go in for your first appointment with the doctor; he sits you down on the table; pulls out a long needle, and injects a fluid (a suspension of these nanomachines) into your skull. You feel some pressure, and you get a bit of a headache but, other than that you're fine. He tells you to go home and get some rest and don't worry about it..

You repeat the treatment the following week; and every week thereafter for two years; 104 treatments total.

After your 104th treatment, you say "see you next week doc" and he informs you that you're done. There's nothing more for him to do. You ask him what he means and he tells you, you no longer have any biological neurons to replace, your brain is entirely artificial running on billions of small computational devices (the artificial neurons).

You think to yourself, well, am I still the same person?

You never noticed yourself changing... nothing really happened. Yet your brain is gone... completely. Yet you still exist.

The reason this is the case is because you, Mar, are not your brain; you are the emergent consciousness that has manifested itself from your brain. The brain is essentially the PC, yet your consciousness is the highly customized and tricked out operating system running on top of it.

Now... take this concept and think about it from another angle.

If the artificial neurons didn't exist in physical space as you might expect, but instead were simulated in a virtual machine; would that make any difference?

Let me know if you have any questions.. ;)

If you shoot out of your mommy's pussy or get ripped from her thorax - you may be a human.

I disagree with your assessment of consciousness. It is not formed at a certain point - it is already there and of course operates outside of space and time. It is not found in the brain, solely, if at all. I will argue that at some "point" you start to become aware of your consciousness in different densities, if you will.

I agree that you are not your brain nor your body and all is mind. I've been reading and studying a lot of Robert Anton Wilson lately, and I did happen to see Ex Machina and I think it's entirely possible that much of the population has already undergone their lobotomies....figuratively and/or literally.
 
If you shoot out of your mommy's pussy or get ripped from her thorax - you may be a human.

I disagree with your assessment of consciousness. It is not formed at a certain point - it is already there and of course operates outside of space and time. It is not found in the brain, solely, if at all. I will argue that at some "point" you start to become aware of your consciousness in different densities, if you will.

I agree that you are not your brain nor your body and all is mind. I've been reading and studying a lot of Robert Anton Wilson lately, and I did happen to see Ex Machina and I think it's entirely possible that much of the population has already undergone their lobotomies....figuratively and/or literally.

When we have a full scale simulation of the human brain, if that simulation think's it's conscious, what will the difference be between that and actual human consciousness?
 
When we have a full scale simulation of the human brain, if that simulation think's it's conscious, what will the difference be between that and actual human consciousness?

I would venture to say that obtaining a full scale realistic simulation of the human brain will be impossible. We might be able to build a model that may appear to be similar, but I'm not sure.

To answer your question - The human consciousness will be better. And it would have to be programmed into the model consciousness that it is it human (if that's what you want) where in fact it is not. Also, that consciousness would not be "natural". It would be automated - Of course, that may be in essence the same thing happening to our consciousness on some scale. So.......lol.
 
I would venture to say that obtaining a full scale realistic simulation of the human brain will be impossible. We might be able to build a model that may appear to be similar, but I'm not sure.

There are a lot of people working on doing just just that. The Blue Brain project began in 2005 and is targeting having a full scale human brain up and running in 2023 - just 6 years from now.

To answer your question - The human consciousness will be better. And it would have to be programmed into the model consciousness that it is it human where in fact it is not.

until the full scale model is up and running, how can you possibly know that?

And to be clear, they aren't programming a model for human consciousness, they are reverse engineering the human brain at the cellular level.
 
Also, reading through the thread.

Gour's thought experiment where a brain is replaced without the host noticing a difference in themselves may have provided a practical example of the human soul, no?
 
So....real question here.

I'm 23. Should I say fuck it on my 401k?

That's a tough question. The short term answer is it'll help reduce your taxable income and if you claim a higher exemption on your IT4 and W4 (which I recommend because fuck the government) it'll greatly reduce it.

Do you think you'll live to see your retirement? Could you save money (hypothetically the same amount) in an interest bearing savings account in lieu of deferring to a 401k account (again, you'll lose the tax savings)?
 
That's a tough question. The short term answer is it'll help reduce your taxable income and if you claim a higher exemption on your IT4 and W4 (which I recommend because fuck the government) it'll greatly reduce it.

Do you think you'll live to see your retirement? Could you save money (hypothetically the same amount) in an interest bearing savings account?

I'm saying that I think there's a real possibility that an economy may not exist by the time I am old enough to retire.
 
Or aging will be cured so people don't get so old they have to "retire"

They won't have jobs to retire from, either.

Edit: This broaches the subject:

Would you want to be immortal? I mean literally live forever. Would you choose to "kill" yourself?

At that point...would you go to heaven? We would have already been living there, right? Every need is provided to us. There are no sick, there are no poor. No suffering. No war. Access to anything we want at any time. We will have experienced eternal life. We would be our own creators.

Are we God?







This shit is crazy.
 
So....real question here.

I'm 23. Should I say fuck it on my 401k?

If at some point it becomes apparent that money/economy is soon going away, then just take it out early, pay the penalty, and spend it on hookers and blow.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-15: "Cavs Survive and Advance"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:15: Cavs Survive and Advance
Top