NBA Pulling ASG From Charlotte

[gourimoko]

All I want, all I crave is for a single damn reporter with even the tiniest pair of nuts to mention China when Silver gives his press conference over this.

Any. One.

Why?

 

[Rich]

Why?

Because I think it's disgusting the NBA does so much business, including playing games, in a country with an endless amount of human right's abuses?

How's that.

 

[gourimoko]

Because I think it's disgusting the NBA does so much business, including playing games, in a country with an endless amount of human right's abuses?

How's that.

I think that's great, and I agree.. Can we include North Carolina hosting the All-Star Game in that as well? Does that work for you? Or do we need to start with China first?

p.s.
Have you ever been to China?

 

[Mr. Orange]

Maybe men should just shower with women.

Yeah! And whites with whites! And no Jews in the showers either!

Oh, and poor people shouldn't even have access to showers OR medical care! If they want showers they should have worked harder!

 

[Rich]

I think that's great, and I agree.. Can we include North Carolina hosting the All-Star Game in that as well? Does that work for you? Or do we need to start with China first?

I think taking a moral stand only when it's politically expedient is a pretty gross thing to do.

The NBA only takes this stand because so many others did it first.

Meanwhile, no one says shit about China, so do you think it's even crossed the mind of an NBA executive to pull their operations out? Of course not. Because, first and foremost, we gotta make money. We'll take a moral stance only when it's easy.

Adam Silver can pull the ASG from Charlotte, but I want him to answer when he's going to stop the preseason games in China, and if he isn't, why not?

Also, let's not equate the two. What goes on in China is far, far worse than the NC bathroom law. So if we're choosing stances to take based on morality, removing operations (or, at minimum, removing NBA games from being played) from China should be first.

 

[gourimoko]

I think taking a moral stand only when it's politically expedient is a pretty gross thing to do.

How is this politically expedient, what should the NBA do?

The NBA only takes this stand because so many others did it first.

So since they got beat to the punch, should they not do this? I think you're speaking more to their motive and less to the action itself.

Meanwhile, no one says shit about China, so do you think it's even crossed the mind of an NBA executive to pull their operations out? Of course not. Because, first and foremost, we gotta make money. We'll take a moral stance only when it's easy.

I don't disagree with this, but, how does China speak to the issues in North Carolina; what should the NBA do about the All-Star Game?

Adam Silver can pull the ASG from Charlotte, but I want him to answer when he's going to stop the preseason games in China, and if he isn't, why not?

Again, I'd ask you -- have you been to China?

That's the start to the "why" to your question. I can answer this, but I need to provide you with a lot of context.

And FWIW, I agree with you about the human rights abuses.

Also, let's not equate the two. What goes on in China is far, far worse than the NC bathroom law.

No, let's not equate the two. What goes on in another sovereign nation that is not under our control, while horrible and vile to us, is not comparable to human rights abuses that our own state legislatures pass.

Agreed?

So if we're choosing stances to take based on morality, removing operations (or, at minimum, removing NBA games from being played) from China should be first.

So, we don't do anything about the ASG in Charlotte? Again, what happens here?

And again, I ask, have you ever been to China (and I mean Mainland China, the PRC excluding Hong Kong).

 

[Cavatt]

I understand why some people want it in a warm place. It was -4 in Toronto this year and I froze me nards

 

[Rich]

I honestly don't understand why you want to argue this.

I made the initial post very clear. I want a reporter, while the NBA is in the middle of celebrating how pure and enlightened they are, to then ask why they play basketball games in China. That's what I want. They can pull the game from Charlotte, but they need to immediately start being hounded about all the business they freely choose to do across the ocean.

You're trying to pin me down on something I never said. That the NBA should NOT pull the ASG from Charlotte. That wasn't said nor is it the focus of my argument. I want to know why, if they are pulling the game from Charlotte, are they not pulling preseason games from China. I don't want to have a Charlotte/ASG argument. I've had it.

And no, I haven't been to China.

EDIT: Whatever you're going to type up about how one needs to visit China in order to understand why the NBA can't stop doing business there, just save it, man. They do business there because it's a huge potential revenue stream. Money. That's all. They can pull their games out of a location whenever they so desire.

 

[godfather]

I get both your points. Gour implying one thing happens in another nation, not under our nation's control,.

While what happens here is.

But for the record, I disagree with this decision 100% by the NBA. Because why punish the people in Charlotte, over a law/protest you don't agree with. That's just me.

Which is why I'd still counter, why not allow games be played in China. It's for the fans, not the government. Fuck the government.

 

[Rich]

I get both your points. Gour implying one thing happens in another nation, not under our nation's control,.

While what happens here is.

But for the record, I disagree with this decision 100% by the NBA. Because why punish the people in Charlotte, over a law/protest you don't agree with. That's just me.

Which is why I'd still counter, why not allow games be played in China. It's for the fans, not the government. Fuck the government.

That's my point. Once the league decides to take a moral stand like this, they need to be questioned why they aren't being consistent. If you're moving the ASG out of Charlotte because of what you perceive to be a human right's issue, why not elsewhere (China)?

They chose to make this decision. Now I want to know why they aren't keen on making more of them.

EDIT: As a second point, I'm totally fine with your stance on the issue. Ultimately, fans are being punished. So leave the games as is and let's not turn our business enterprise into a moral arbiter. I think that's defensible.

But now that they've done so.....

 

[gourimoko]

I honestly don't understand why you want to argue this.

Because I was hoping to make some sense of the other side of the coin, coming from the position of someone who agrees with you on a lot of this.

I made the initial post very clear. I want a reporter, while the NBA is in the middle of celebrating how pure and enlightened they are, to then ask why they play basketball games in China. That's what I want. They can pull the game from Charlotte, but they need to immediately start being hounded about all the business they freely choose to do across the ocean.

Hmm..

You're trying to pin me down on something I never said. That the NBA should NOT pull the ASG from Charlotte. That wasn't said nor is it the focus of my argument. I want to know why, if they are pulling the game from Charlotte, are they not pulling preseason games from China. I don't want to have a Charlotte/ASG argument. I've had it.

Okay.

And no, I haven't been to China.

I didn't think so.

Rich, you should go to China and talk to some people on the street; and I'd advise being careful - and not of government cracking down on you, but how people might take your belief that you understand what's going on there.

I've been to China, know many Chinese, have studied the region (Southeast Asia in general as I've stated before). With that said, I agree with you about their human rights abuses; but I don't make this human rights argument for the people of China, in the way you have here, for a few reasons but primarily because of our incompatible viewpoints of what it means to be "oppressed."

With that said, I will say that the situations here are completely different, as you yourself stated we shouldn't equate the two; but here's some additional information as to why I've come to my conclusion:

1) North Carolina is a part of the United States and the NBA is not a world league, but really, an American league. The human rights abuses here in the States are more pressing than matters in China; and that isn't to say China's aren't worse or more important in totality of human suffering, but with respect to our ability to affect change.

2) Chinese people (not the government) would very likely take offense to the NBA suggesting their country suffers from human rights abuses. Most Chinese people would very likely disagree, and most would very likely think this was a snub that would cause the Chinese people as a whole to lose face.

3) Chinese people, by and large, and I mean the man on the street, believe in the single-party system. They believe in the Communist ideals, for the most part, because they don't know any better. Their rich history and culture have been literally wiped from memory (the same thing groups like ISIS hope to do), and the only physical remnants remaining are limited to Hong Kong and Taiwan.

4) Most Chinese people would generally laugh at you if you told them they were oppressed, especially if they were educated. They would argue that oppression is a function of economy mobility; and that China has enjoyed the most economic mobility of any country in the past 70 years. Chinese would argue that their individual opportunities and, from their perspective, their liberties, have increased precipitously as China has become a more dominant world power both economically and militarily.

5) Chinese people do not view democracy is the only way to govern; they view their single-party system as an equally valid approach, the streamlines the growth of developing nations.

6) Chinese people aren't aware, and likely wouldn't agree, or wouldn't even value some of the human rights abuses towards minorities, or the oppressed.

7) Chinese people view their entire system as a meritocracy, where they feel their system is far more efficient, well-organized, and has a greater mandate to rule than any form of democratic republic.

Now, with all that said, should the NBA speak out about human rights abuses in China? Yes, I think so. But simply refusing to do business with them does nothing. In fact, I think it has the opposite effect.

Doing business with communist and otherwise closed nations has a history of opening those nations via internal reforms. Closing ourselves off or refusing to do business with such nations generally has no positive effect.

So if you're calling for an NBA boycott, like the NBA seems to be partially boycotting the All-Star Game in Charlotte; I don't know if that would exact the desired effect -- in fact, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't.

Whereas, moving the All-Star Game will speak volumes as that will be, yet another business, deciding it will voice it's opinion with it's capital.

Yes, the two shouldn't be equated, I agree. Yes, China has a history of human rights violations.

But, it's more complex than you're making it, I think; and boycotting China should not act as a prerequisite for pulling the All-Star Game as an act of protest over a controversial law.

 

[gourimoko]

EDIT: Whatever you're going to type up about how one needs to visit China in order to understand why the NBA can't stop doing business there, just save it, man. They do business there because it's a huge potential revenue stream. Money. That's all. They can pull their games out of a location whenever they so desire.

I missed your edit.

But, of course the NBA does business in China because it's a huge revenue stream... That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not turning off that business stream will help the people in China. I don't think it would for the aforementioned reasons. But I do think pulling the ASG out of North Carolina will help the situation there, so this does make sense for the NBA.

And it's not that you need to visit China; you don't. But, I think it's fair to say that you need to understand something about the place, the people, their history, and how they've come to where they are and why they hold the views that they do before making these kinds of statements.

 

[Rich]

I gotta say the anecdotal, talk to the people on the street evidence is rather weak.

I bet there are a great many people in North Carolina who are fully ok with their bathroom law, as well, and see nothing wrong with it. I have no idea why that should be the standard. This is true of anywhere in the world. A great many people in Iran support the Ayatollah, too.

As for the refusal to do business, it's a moral stand. You don't make the decision based on whether or not it will have a desired result. You do it simply because it's right.

 

[Rich]

I missed your edit.

But, of course the NBA does business in China because it's a huge revenue stream... That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not turning off that business stream will help the people in China. I don't think it would for the aforementioned reasons. But I do think pulling the ASG out of North Carolina will help the situation there, so this does make sense for the NBA.

And it's not that you need to visit China; you don't. But, I think it's fair to say that you need to understand something about the place, the people, their history, and how they've come to where they are and why they hold the views that they do before making these kinds of statements.

I think you're giving the NBA entirely too much credit when it comes to these decisions. They didn't make the decision with this thought in mind. Whether or not it would help the situation in North Carolina. They made the decision because the political winds have shifted enough that's its now the prudent thing to do for business purposes.

That's ultimately my point. They didn't pull out of Charlotte because they actually believe they are making a difference and doing the right thing. They did it because there is now so much outside pressure to do so that there is a real threat to their business model if they did not do so. Loss of prestige, loss of ad revenue, etc. This is the same reason they will not be removing preseason games from China. Right now, they are under virtually no pressure to do so and thus no threat of financial/business consequence for failing to do so.

That's what motivates them. And that's why I want a reporter to bring this up with Adam Silver, to put him on the spot. He won't be prepared to rattle of the 7 points you just listed because that's not apart of his thinking, at all.

 

[gourimoko]

But for the record, I disagree with this decision 100% by the NBA. Because why punish the people in Charlotte, over a law/protest you don't agree with. That's just me.

Which is why I'd still counter, why not allow games be played in China. It's for the fans, not the government. Fuck the government.

Because the NBA can affect change in North Carolina. The NBA cannot affect change in China.