Open Discussion (Cavs + related issues)

[tonyn]

I think alot of the defense issue come from not having moz and delly on the bench to come in providing size and grit
During the finals it may not be an issue but as we coast through the season not having those guys behind kyrie and Tristan exposes our lack of defensive depth.
Talk all you want about their short comings but delly was a put bull you could put on the court with anyone and moz is a giant mountain that will clobber you

 

[BimboColesHair]

I think alot of the defense issue come from not having moz and delly on the bench to come in providing size and grit
During the finals it may not be an issue but as we coast through the season not having those guys behind kyrie and Tristan exposes our lack of defensive depth.
Talk all you want about their short comings but delly was a put bull you could put on the court with anyone and moz is a giant mountain that will clobber you

During the playoffs in general it won't matter.

And if that was people's argument, that the personnel isn't as good FOR THE REGULAR SEASON this year, I'd be in total agreement. For fucks sake, we played half a season with no backup PG on roster...

However, we have people in here saying the personnel won't be good for the playoffs either, which I think is BS. We don't have a personnel problem in the playoffs, IMO. But we do have a lack of effort/attention to detail/time to create more complex gameplans in the regular season, which I think are much, much bigger issues than "personnel".

 

[Chris Parker]

During the playoffs in general it won't matter.

And if that was people's argument, that the personnel isn't as good FOR THE REGULAR SEASON this year, I'd be in total agreement. For fucks sake, we played half a season with no backup PG on roster...

However, we have people in here saying the personnel won't be good for the playoffs either, which I think is BS. We don't have a personnel problem in the playoffs, IMO. But we do have a lack of effort/attention to detail/time to create more complex gameplans in the regular season, which I think are much, much bigger issues than "personnel".

I would generally agree with you excepting the fact that defensive rebounding has been an issue all season, no just since Love went down and their ability to defend the pick and roll. You believe when the team changes to a switching defense it will be resolved and there is reason to believe you are right. But seeing as how they haven't really run that during regular season, there is some reason to wonder if they will be as effective with it in the playoffs as they were in Games 5-7 of the Finals.

On the other hand, there is reason imo to wonder if the East even has teams capable of beating an engaged & healthy Cavaliers team in a 7 game series.

But to dismiss questions about personnel seems to ignore the season-long issues with penetration and defensive rebounding. They could improve, and as you point out the switching defense will help, but it seems fair to wonder if the team's personnel is going to be able to play well enough defensively given the personnel they are intent on playing offensively.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

But we do have a lack of effort/attention to detail/time to create more complex gameplans in the regular season, which I think are much, much bigger issues than "personnel".

It's both. Delly and even Cunningham were change-of-pace defensive guards who could slow and prevent penetration from opposing teams. Mozgov even at his bobbling-best was a presence beneath the rim who saved some wear on TT.

All of their absences this year have exposed how thin we are when it comes to players who actually prioritize that end of the ball.

Now I get that Delly and Moz didn't get a ton of burn in the postseason but our reliance on them in the regular season lessened the burden on our other guys and preserved them for the stretch run.

 

[buzzdog]

I would generally agree with you excepting the fact that defensive rebounding has been an issue all season, no just since Love went down and their ability to defend the pick and roll. You believe when the team changes to a switching defense it will be resolved and there is reason to believe you are right. But seeing as how they haven't really run that during regular season, there is some reason to wonder if they will be as effective with it in the playoffs as they were in Games 5-7 of the Finals.

On the other hand, there is reason imo to wonder if the East even has teams capable of beating an engaged & healthy Cavaliers team in a 7 game series.

But to dismiss questions about personnel seems to ignore the season-long issues with penetration and defensive rebounding. They could improve, and as you point out the switching defense will help, but it seems fair to wonder if the team's personnel is going to be able to play well enough defensively given the personnel they are intent on playing offensively.

It just seems we could have said a lot of the same things about the defense last year.

 

[Chris Parker]

It just seems we could have said a lot of the same things about the defense last year.

Not the defensive rebounding. That was very good last year. They were the 5th best DRb team in the league during regular season. This year they're 23rd.

Now think about that in context of a team that is 26th in forcing turnovers. (last year they were 21st)

You can't fastbreak if you can't get rebounds or turnovers, and fastbreak and early offense has been the most consistent part of offense this season.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I would generally agree with you excepting the fact that defensive rebounding has been an issue all season, no just since Love went down and their ability to defend the pick and roll. You believe when the team changes to a switching defense it will be resolved and there is reason to believe you are right. But seeing as how they haven't really run that during regular season, there is some reason to wonder if they will be as effective with it in the playoffs as they were in Games 5-7 of the Finals.

On the other hand, there is reason imo to wonder if the East even has teams capable of beating an engaged & healthy Cavaliers team in a 7 game series.

But to dismiss questions about personnel seems to ignore the season-long issues with penetration and defensive rebounding. They could improve, and as you point out the switching defense will help, but it seems fair to wonder if the team's personnel is going to be able to play well enough defensively given the personnel they are intent on playing offensively.

They barely ran the switching defense last regular season...and the year before that they didn't even run it in the regular season...

They discovered it out of necessity year one, when Love went down and Tristan had to log much heavier minutes. In a sense they "mucked" games up after that, and that was the defense that accomplished that, and they've kind of stuck with it in the playoffs ever since, which leads me to believe Lue had a lot of say in its creation.

But it's not something you can get away with over an 82 game season. You'd burn guys out...they brought it for like the last couple of weeks last year, but other than that they rolled with the vanilla defense you mostly see now, though we did use it with one individual lineup a month ago...the all 6'6+ lineup that ran teams off the court played our playoff defense in a sense, in that they just switched anything and everything.

They tried making it less vanilla this year, but just complicated PnR coverages and led to too many miscommunications while doing so and scrapped it.

Also, we were a top 10 rebounding team before Love went out, I believe. And LeBron ups his defensive rebounding to another level in the playoffs. Career 17.9% DRB% in the regular season, but 20.4% in the playoffs. Playoff Lebron is most certainly a thing, and when he is giving consistent effort on defense and rebounding the ball, we change as a team defensively...which happens every summer.

Just...I watch a lot of defense played by them...watch it more than their offense, that's for sure. And some of the things guys are doing are just head-scratching in nature in how lazy and inattentive they are being while doing them. Like they are literally going through the motions.

It's just way too hard to judge this team in the regular season because we have seen, time and time again, that they just literally don't give a shit about it...why I continue to say wait for the playoffs, wait for the playoffs, wait for the playoffs...then we will truly know if the personnel has short comings.

 

[BimboColesHair]

It's both. Delly and even Cunningham were change-of-pace defensive guards who could slow and prevent penetration from opposing teams. Mozgov even at his bobbling-best was a presence beneath the rim who saved some wear on TT.

All of their absences this year have exposed how thin we are when it comes to players who actually prioritize that end of the ball.

Now I get that Delly and Moz didn't get a ton of burn in the postseason but our reliance on them in the regular season lessened the burden on our other guys and preserved them for the stretch run.

I'd say, as an all-around defensive player, Liggins is about 20x the defender that Cunningham was...why you are even bringing him up is a little weird...guy was a literal non-factor on the floor.

And guess what? We have lessened the burden on our other guys, and preserved them this year. What the bullshit effort is all about by them this regular season, and the throwaway rest games. And why we had to sit through games where Liggins, McRae, and Felder played meaningful minutes for us.

Different ways to go about preserving guys...ours this season is by playing with as little effort as needed to win games, and sitting guys out of games completely this year.

Seriously...I urge people who are concerned about LeBron's minutes to watch him as close as possible on defense tonight, and then come in and tell me how much energy he is expending on that side of the floor while he is out there...cause its not much...easily less than last year and the year before that...

 

[Chris Parker]

Also, we were a top 10 rebounding team before Love went out, I believe.

Not true. They were 21st on January back when they were 25-7 before the awful January

http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced...7&SeasonType=Regular Season&DateTo=01/01/2017

As I said, this has been a season long problem.

Maybe it won't make a difference. However it flies in the face of the blithe dismissals that this year is the same as last. I understand how that makes people feel good. But it's not true. Nobody knows what will happen, but there's more cause to be worried imo this season than last. I mean, if for no other reason than that the 2014-2015 actually really did improve defensively in the playoffs.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Not true. They were 21st on January back when they were 25-7 before the awful January

http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/#!?sort=DREB_PCT&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&DateTo=01/01/2017

As I said, this has been a season long problem.

Maybe it won't make a difference. However it flies in the face of the blithe dismissals that this year is the same as last. I understand how that makes people feel good. But it's not true. Nobody knows what will happen, but there's more cause to be worried imo this season than last. I mean, if for no other reason than that the 2014-2015 actually really did improve defensively in the playoffs.

I'm guessing its just TRB% they were top 10 in then. Also, you are only looking at a less than 1% difference between being 21st, and being in the top half of the league, with a much smaller sample size than previous years. If Kevin never gets hurt, are we still 21st, do we get better, do we get worse? We'll never know.

And I am not going to bother to worry about regular seasons much anymore...just figuring if the team doesn't care, why should I.

We had meltdowns in 2014-15 that we weren't even going to make it out of the East when we had a losing record a few months into the season...even more when Atlanta stomped us in Atlanta one game. Then even more when Love went down.

Last year we had meltdowns that the team still wasn't meshing. That we had no shot to keep pace with Golden State's offense. That our defense wouldn't be able to string together stops against them.

All of those worries have been for naught that this board went through. Maybe they will be right this time, but that still won't change the fact that overreacting to the regular season, with this team, is just something I will never do.

 

[AllforOne]

Seriously...I urge people who are concerned about LeBron's minutes to watch him as close as possible on defense tonight, and then come in and tell me how much energy he is expending on that side of the floor while he is out there...cause its not much...easily less than last year and the year before that...

And I don't think it was all that much last year or the year before, either.

My theory about LeBron is that the 2008-09 season changed his perception of the regular season. Up to and including that season, LeBron tried harder during the regular season. In 2008-09, the Cavs were routinely curb-stomping other teams, and they ended up with 66 wins, good for the best record in the NBA.

Then came the playoffs, specifically the ECF. All that work during the regular season meant nothing. The Cavs were bounced in six games. Six games, three of which were in Cleveland, and three of which were in Orlando. LeBron gave it his all, but was reduced to limping off the court, completely spent, while the Magic celebrated.

What does a better seed get you? Not a whole heck of a lot, honestly. Having the better seed in a series gives one advantage: if the series makes it to a Game Seven, it'll be at home. Other than that, nothing.

I think LeBron realized that after the 2008-09 season, because since then, he has seemed to coast more during the regular season. Other than 2012-13, LeBron's teams never came close to equaling that 66-win regular season (even though he had a much better surrounding cast in Miami and in the Cavs 2.0 phase of his career). My guess is that it's because he knows that the regular season means almost diddly squat. He's been quoted several times as saying "just get me to the postseason." He knows that his team is going to qualify for the playoffs; as long as they get there, he doesn't care about the seed.

All of this is to say that I wouldn't read too much into the Cavs' regular season effort, and especially not LeBron's regular season effort. They are a veteran team, and they seem to know when to flip the switch. It may be frustrating to us as fans, but it's part of the deal with LeBron.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'm guessing its just TRB% they were top 10 in then. Also, you are only looking at a less than 1% difference between being 21st, and being in the top half of the league, with a much smaller sample size than previous years. If Kevin never gets hurt, are we still 21st, do we get better, do we get worse? We'll never know.

And I am not going to bother to worry about regular seasons much anymore...just figuring if the team doesn't care, why should I.

We had meltdowns in 2014-15 that we weren't even going to make it out of the East when we had a losing record a few months into the season...even more when Atlanta stomped us in Atlanta one game. Then even more when Love went down.

Last year we had meltdowns that the team still wasn't meshing. That we had no shot to keep pace with Golden State's offense. That our defense wouldn't be able to string together stops against them.

All of those worries have been for naught that this board went through. Maybe they will be right this time, but that still won't change the fact that overreacting to the regular season, with this team, is just something I will never do.

It's fair to wonder with this team. I certainly do. There's just a few things that say to me this is different. As bad as the team was last year defensively, they weren't this bad. Another stat that blew me away, lsat year, Team rankings had them as the 7th best transition defense, now they're near the bottom.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-fastbreak-efficiency

I can't help but feel that's significant. But it's certainly reasonable to say nothing matters. But then why even visit the message board until April 15th?

 

[BimboColesHair]

And I don't think it was all that much last year or the year before, either.

My theory about LeBron is that the 2008-09 season changed his perception of the regular season. Up to and including that season, LeBron tried harder during the regular season. In 2008-09, the Cavs were routinely curb-stomping other teams, and they ended up with 66 wins, good for the best record in the NBA.

Then came the playoffs, specifically the ECF. All that work during the regular season meant nothing. The Cavs were bounced in six games. Six games, three of which were in Cleveland, and three of which were in Orlando. LeBron gave it his all, but was reduced to limping off the court, completely spent, while the Magic celebrated.

What does a better seed get you? Not a whole heck of a lot, honestly. Having the better seed in a series gives one advantage: if the series makes it to a Game Seven, it'll be at home. Other than that, nothing.

I think LeBron realized that after the 2008-09 season, because since then, he has seemed to coast more during the regular season. Other than 2012-13, LeBron's teams never came close to equaling that 66-win regular season (even though he had a much better surrounding cast in Miami and in the Cavs 2.0 phase of his career). My guess is that it's because he knows that the regular season means almost diddly squat. He's been quoted several times as saying "just get me to the postseason." He knows that his team is going to qualify for the playoffs; as long as they get there, he doesn't care about the seed.

All of this is to say that I wouldn't read too much into the Cavs' regular season effort, and especially not LeBron's regular season effort. They are a veteran team, and they seem to know when to flip the switch. It may be frustrating to us as fans, but it's part of the deal with LeBron.

If 08-09 changed his perception, 2012-13 removed all desire to go full bore in the regular season IMO. The Mavericks series is the tipping point in his career. He won his first title in a lockout shortened season the next year, but people kind of discredited him for it, saying it wasn't a legit title and all that.

But 2012-13 he came out, dominated the league, beat the heavily experienced Spurs in the Finals in a full season, saw what that tasted like, and now its all he wants. The taste of the highly earned and respected championship > the taste of a successful regular season.

That's when he stopped caring about the regular season, regular season awards, regular season accolades, and did nothing but keep himself ready for the next post season.

 

[BimboColesHair]

It's fair to wonder with this team. I certainly do. There's just a few things that say to me this is different. As bad as the team was last year defensively, they weren't this bad. Another stat that blew me away, lsat year, Team rankings had them as the 7th best transition defense, now they're near the bottom.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-fastbreak-efficiency

I can't help but feel that's significant. But it's certainly reasonable to say nothing matters. But then why even visit the message board until April 15th?

Transition defense is all about effort though. Effort in getting back.

Pair low effort with a higher volume of 3s being taken leading to more longer rebounds in games than years past, and you have all the makings of a shitty transition defense.

 

[BimboColesHair]

But then why even visit the message board until April 15th?

Obviously its still interesting to post on the board. I'm not taking offense to talking about their regular season issues. Shit, I spent the first few months of the season just shitting on Longabardi any chance I could get.

Only thing I have an issue with is the whole "we're doing this in the regular season, so we'll do this in the post season too" reasoning, which seems to be going on.

Just me, personally, I am expecting a few things to happen way differently in the playoffs, with regards to things that have effects on defensive numbers:

I believe the Cavs will play at a slower pace than their regular season pace. Less possessions usually leads to less points scored. LeBron led teams seem to like making the playoffs more about efficiency.

I believe our scouting reports and defensive game plans for individual teams will be way less vanilla than the regular season versions. More details on shooters to stick to, shooters to leave to help off of, rotations and switches that are effective vs a single team that may not work against different teams, etc. Which leads to...

I believe the team as a whole will pay more attention to detail in the playoffs defensively. No more going under PnRs against shooters, no more helping off of shooters, no more losing shooters in transition...I find it hard to believe that the same team that shut down Korver from 3, the Splash Brothers from 3, and by always being connected to them or on their hip or fighting over screens to stay with them, just magically forgot how to do that in less than half a year...cause if you watch them this regular season, they appear to have done just that...but I have a little more faith in our guys than that.

I believe LeBron expends much more energy on the defensive side of the ball and the defensive glass than he does in the regular season. He's done it in the past, why wouldn't he do it now. And he is such a huge factor for our defense as a whole. And if LeBron expends more energy, the rest of the team tends to follow suit...just like when he doesn't expend energy.

I believe defensive liabilities, like Frye, will become situation players, not rotation players, when rotations get cut down...which you would assume would help the defense out a bit.

And this isn't something I believe, this is something I know. Our big guns will log heavier minutes figures, leading to better basketball all around over the course of a 48 minute game.

The second I see the same shitty, pathetic effort with no attention to detail, Frye still playing ~20 minutes a game, and a vanilla defense being played in the playoffs, is the second I'll join in on panicking about it.