Racial Tension in the U.S.

[Wrathe]

I guess, but it seems to be effective. This headline is sort of misleading because in the article it mostly talks about how de-escalation tecniques help and how stuff like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...c42097b8cc0_story.html?utm_term=.7a9cf8a81d12

"New York City’s SWAT team, its Emergency Services Unit, is widely cited as a model in calming tense situations and passing its training on to the city’s thousands of patrol officers. Between training and modified policies over the years, New York police went from shooting 994 people in 1972 to 79 people in 2014. The unit’s trainers helped PERF create its training.


“It saves lives,” said Chief Barry M. Barnard of Prince William County, Va., who has appointed a captain at his county’s police academy to instill the “PERF 30.”"

I guess we can disagree about whether it is effective or not, but that mostly seems to be based on feeling and not numbers. Why not do what works? Routinely the higher your level of training as a police officer, the less likely you are to use deadly force because you will have the tactical advantage every time. Shooting your gun always carries the risk of shooting someone by accident that is in the are as well.


another one

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/deescalation-policing-works.html

Listen, I am not saying don't shoot someone who is coming after you with a sword, but barking and coming into the situation at 11 isn't always a good tactic.

I honestly don't have a real opinion, I've not worked in law enforcement. I was just pondering along w/ ya and thought that might be why de-escalation tactics aren't as widely adopted.

 

[Cavatt]

I honestly don't have a real opinion, I've not worked in law enforcement. I was just pondering along w/ ya and thought that might be why de-escalation tactics aren't as widely adopted.

There is good example of the pushback in the officer community and their thinking in that first article.

 

[Kyrie4MVP0202]

There is good example of the pushback in the officer community and their thinking in that first article.

You couldn't possibly understand their thinking without first walking in their shoes. I know you think you do but you don't.

I think there's a real disconnect with people about the reality of this job. You probably go to work or school everyday without major incident for the most part. These people endure the realities, a lot of bad realities, on a daily basis.

Almost 10 Officers died because of the high profile nature of this case but it's not even a footnote in any of your opinions and suggestions.

Put on a badge, go out in the real world and report back your findings.

I guarantee you your opinion changes.

 

[Sebastian]

I honestly don't have a real opinion, I've not worked in law enforcement. I was just pondering along w/ ya and thought that might be why de-escalation tactics aren't as widely adopted.

Training takes time. Lots of time. And money.

Many departments can't devote resources to training of this complexity. It requires repetition and realistic scenarios.

Army trains for deescalation and riot control. These training scenarios involve close to 100 paid actors (usually were recent Iraqi immigrants who Trump is now sending back to their deaths) to closely simulate reality.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I think this is very reasonable. Why are people against better training to help police make better snap decisions and de-escalate the situation. It is totally binary, you are with us or you are against us.

Assuming it's good training, I don't know why anyone would be against it. But I wouldn't be so sure that they don't already get training in de-escalation. In fact, I know at least some departments do that. And that's also very often the type of thing you learn on the job as well, with more experienced cops helping the younger ones. You learn community relations by relating to the community.

Also, shouldn't you be upset by the wasteful spending involved as a conservative? We are paying these penalties. I think it is a waste of money personally.

Fair point -- I was talking with reference to victims and their families gaining nothing if you make it harder to sue civilly. And there is an issue with deterrence -- the prospect of paying large civil penalties (not to mention the civic backlash from the shooting itself) does encourage cities and departments to engage in training to avoid such situation. For example, the consent decree here in Cleveland as a result of the Tamir Rice shooting requires significant spending on training.

I've actually been involved with some of that because of my wife's business. I can tell you that for the overwhelming majority of cops (haven't met an exception, either) the Tamir Rice shooting is their worst nightmare.

Here's the real issue: I think people wrongly assume that "training" is going to make all these incidents avoidable. It isn't, and that is true in both the military and police. Cops and military people are drawn from the general population, and the general population includes people who make bad decisions under pressure, or are just assholes. You're looking for someone with the physical courage to go into dangerous situations on a routine basis, yet have the social/emotional skills to be able to talk people down like a trained psychologist. The reality is that that's a tall order when we require as many cops as we do. We can train people all day, and there are still going to be some who make bad decisions in crunch time. And when you multiply the number of cops, by how many citizen encounters each has in a given year....that's a shitload of opportunities to make a mistake.

You can point to units like New York's SWAT team, but there are two things to keep in mind there. They get to spend a much higher percentage of their time training than do other cops because they don't walk beats. They're the elite. Also, because they are the elite, they are hand-picked for their jobs. It would be like looking at Delta, and saying that the rest of the military should receive that same training so they're all that good. It's simply not possible.

 

[Cavatt]

You couldn't possibly understand their thinking without first walking in their shoes. I know you think you do but you don't.

I think there's a real disconnect with people about the reality of this job. You probably go to work or school everyday without major incident for the most part. These people endure the realities, a lot of bad realities, on a daily basis.

Almost 10 Officers died because of the high profile nature of this case but it's not even a footnote in any of your opinions and suggestions.

Put on a badge, go out in the real world and report back your findings.

I guarantee you your opinion changes.

If you are referring to the guy in the parking garage sniping police, that isn't even on the table. I don't even have a problem with them killing him with a robot.

Funny how I can't know what an officer feels, but you know exactly how minorities feel. Anyway, I'm a fan of Police. I think that their tactics sometimes get them killed as well as civilians who don't deserve it.

One of my biggest issues is pulling people over on the highway. Is it more dangerous to be going 80 in a 65 or 0 in a 65 as a sitting duck? Seems clear to me. They still don't just go on the loudspeaker and say "go to the next exit" despite the fact more officers are killed in traffic accidents than shootings.

Everyone everywhere should be trying to get better at their job. Policing is no exception. People view these things as done deals, but there is always room for improvement.

 

[Cavatt]

Assuming it's good training, I don't know why anyone would be against it. But I wouldn't be so sure that they don't already get training in de-escalation. In fact, I know at least some departments do that. And that's also very often the type of thing you learn on the job as well, with more experienced cops helping the younger ones. You learn community relations by relating to the community.



Fair point -- I was talking with reference to victims and their families gaining nothing if you make it harder to sue civilly. And there is an issue with deterrence -- the prospect of paying large civil penalties (not to mention the civic backlash from the shooting itself) does encourage cities and departments to engage in training to avoid such situation. For example, the consent decree here in Cleveland as a result of the Tamir Rice shooting requires significant spending on training.

I've actually been involved with some of that because of my wife's business. I can tell you that for the overwhelming majority of cops (haven't met an exception, either) the Tamir Rice shooting is their worst nightmare.

Here's the real issue: I think people wrongly assume that "training" is going to make all these incidents avoidable. It isn't, and that is true in both the military and police. Cops and military people are drawn from the general population, and the general population includes people who make bad decisions under pressure, or are just assholes. You're looking for someone with the physical courage to go into dangerous situations on a routine basis, yet have the social/emotional skills to be able to talk people down like a trained psychologist. The reality is that that's a tall order when we require as many cops as we do. We can train people all day, and there are still going to be some who make bad decisions in crunch time. And when you multiply the number of cops, by how many citizen encounters each has in a given year....that's a shitload of opportunities to make a mistake.

You can point to units like New York's SWAT team, but there are two things to keep in mind there. They get to spend a much higher percentage of their time training than do other cops because they don't walk beats. They're the elite. Also, because they are the elite, they are hand-picked for their jobs. It would be like looking at Delta, and saying that the rest of the military should receive that same training so they're all that good. It's simply not possible.

Guess I'd argue that they can't afford not to do better training. It is costing them a lot of money

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Guess I'd argue that they can't afford not to do better training. It is costing them a lot of money

Dude....I can't say a lot, but I'll just say that deciding on the training is a pretty politicized question. Everyone wants to have their own input, including the local community, feds, cops themselves, etc.. So getting actual decisions isn't easy.

It's kind of depressing to see the process at work....

 

[Cavatt]

Dude....I can't say a lot, but I'll just say that deciding on the training is a pretty politicized question. Everyone wants to have their own input, including the local community, feds, cops themselves, etc.. So getting actual decisions isn't easy.

It's kind of depressing to see the process at work....

Yeah I believe that. Funny how you can't just look at a a department where it is working and just implement that one.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yeah I believe that. Funny how you can't just look at a a department where it is working and just implement that one.

The enormous variable is the culture and personnel within that department. Some departments are very good without the additional training, and some are crappy even after being trained.

I honestly think one of the biggest steps that could be taken is to end the just cause/union protection for cops, but I don't see that really happening. Even just adding a CBA provision stating that any discipline relating to abuse/misconduct with the public is not subject to arbitration would help.

 

[Tornicade]

You couldn't possibly understand their thinking without first walking in their shoes. I know you think you do but you don't.

I think there's a real disconnect with people about the reality of this job. You probably go to work or school everyday without major incident for the most part. These people endure the realities, a lot of bad realities, on a daily basis.

Almost 10 Officers died because of the high profile nature of this case but it's not even a footnote in any of your opinions and suggestions.

Put on a badge, go out in the real world and report back your findings.

I guarantee you your opinion changes.

you were a cop?

 

[Cavatt]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-s...s-off-duty-black-officer/?ftag=CNM-00-10aac3a

If only this off duty cop knew the correct protocol.

ST LOUIS – A black off-duty St. Louis police officer was shot by a white on-duty police officer from the same department who apparently mistook him for a fleeing suspect, according to a statement from the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

At about 10 p.m. Wednesday evening, St. Louis police received a report that a stolen vehicle had been spotted. Officers laid down spike strips and turned on their lights, but the occupants of the vehicle allegedly opened fire on police. Officers followed the car until it crashed.

According to the police statement, the armed suspects then fled on foot. Meanwhile, an off-duty officer who lived near where the crash occurred came outside with his department issued firearm after hearing the commotion.

Two officers "challenged the off-duty officer and ordered him to the ground," the department said. The officer complied and once they recognized him the on-duty officers told him "to stand up and walk toward them."



At about the same time, another officer who had just arrived on the scene saw what was happening and "fearing for his safety and apparently not recognizing the off-duty officer, discharged a shot, striking the off-duty officer in the arm."

The injured officer was taken to the hospital and has since been released. He is described as 38 year old with 11 years of service. The department says that the officer who allegedly shot him is 36 years old with over eight years of service.

Two of the three suspects in the stolen car chase were taken into custody and booked on $500,000 cash bond. One suspect is still at large.

Seven officers have been placed on administrative leave while the shooting is investigated.

 

[Tornicade]

Watching LivePD . The officers respond to a party call at an apartment complex. they go into a breezeway and one of the uguys they stopped to talk to reached for his waste and thre some pills in his mouth.

He was immediately apprehended and wrestled to the ground. the cops didn't know what he was doing.


Turns out when they checked the follow up the hospital confirmed he did take prescribed medication.

THe guy had his medication in a pillbox instead of a bottle. When they asked him why he did it . he said he was taken in before and they wouldn't let him have his medication that he needed ( I am assuming he had a pillbox instead of a pill bottle. (the bottle was in the car.)

In my opinion this situation because some cops had been dicks to him before .

which contributed to creating an unsafe situation later.

The cops themselves never know when they are on live television or if an encounter is gonna be played later.

A lot of the locals are familiar with some of the officers because of the show.

and its not just cherry picked encounters like we see in shows like cops.


I would like to see more departments have similar local feeds if there was a way to fund it. (Local advertising?)

 

[Tornicade]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...12026319da7_story.html?utm_term=.963187e7b67f

ST. LOUIS — An off-duty black St. Louis police officer’s race factored into him being mistakenly shot by a white officer who didn’t recognize him during a shootout with black suspects this week, the wounded officer’s lawyer contends.

The 38-year-old black officer was off duty when he heard a commotion near his home and ran toward it with his service weapon to try to help his fellow officers, police said.

St. Louis’ interim police chief, Lawrence O’Toole, said the incident began when officers with an anti-crime task force followed a stolen car and were twice fired upon by its occupants. One suspect was shot in an ankle and was arrested, along with another teenager who tried to run from police, O’Toole said. A third suspect is being sought.

When the off-duty officer who lived nearby heard the commotion and arrived at the scene to help, two on-duty officers ordered him to the ground but then recognized him and told him to stand up and walk toward them. As he was doing so, another officer arrived and shot the off-duty officer “apparently not recognizing” him, police said.

The police department hadn’t disclosed the names of the officers as of Saturday. It described the black officer as an 11-year department veteran and said he was treated at a hospital and released. The officer who shot him is 36 years old and has been with the department more than eight years.

I guess this is an okay mistake too? Black guy with a gun... shoot him

 

[DJTJ]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...12026319da7_story.html?utm_term=.963187e7b67f

ST. LOUIS — An off-duty black St. Louis police officer’s race factored into him being mistakenly shot by a white officer who didn’t recognize him during a shootout with black suspects this week, the wounded officer’s lawyer contends.

The 38-year-old black officer was off duty when he heard a commotion near his home and ran toward it with his service weapon to try to help his fellow officers, police said.

St. Louis’ interim police chief, Lawrence O’Toole, said the incident began when officers with an anti-crime task force followed a stolen car and were twice fired upon by its occupants. One suspect was shot in an ankle and was arrested, along with another teenager who tried to run from police, O’Toole said. A third suspect is being sought.

When the off-duty officer who lived nearby heard the commotion and arrived at the scene to help, two on-duty officers ordered him to the ground but then recognized him and told him to stand up and walk toward them. As he was doing so, another officer arrived and shot the off-duty officer “apparently not recognizing” him, police said.

The police department hadn’t disclosed the names of the officers as of Saturday. It described the black officer as an 11-year department veteran and said he was treated at a hospital and released. The officer who shot him is 36 years old and has been with the department more than eight years.

I guess this is an okay mistake too? Black guy with a gun... shoot him

Of all the fucking news articles trying to spin the anti-black thing, this is by far the worst.

An officer arrives to a shootout call with known black suspects. He then opens fire on a black person with a gun.

This is drastically difference to being in a position of power.