Start the Debates: Who is your Top-25 All-Time?

[Ohioplayer00]

Which league are you talking about? Russell and Wilt played in the 60s. Shaq dominated the late 90s and early 2000s. Gilmore played in the late 70s and early 80s.

Joel Embiid would 100% be able to hang with Lanier and Gilmore. He just had a season that shit on anything either of those guys ever did this year.



Guess he's better than Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron too if the eleven titles (most of them coming with seven other teams in the league) are the benchmark we're measuring everybody against now.

Hell, Robert Horry is too.

Screw it, lets throw Satch Sanders and Frank Ramsay above them too for a laugh.

And only being 6’9 and holding his own against players bigger than him is what made him great! I pointed out 11 titles because you seem to discount his greatest and I decided to show you that the 50 other players you think are better haven’t come close to him in winning.
And Embid’s light ass would be on the bench in the second quarter in foul trouble trying to guard Gilmore, Lanier….not to mention Shaq! Hell Embid had a hard time guarding JA.
And just who are the 50 better than Russ?

 

[Stark]

And only being 6’9 and holding his own against players bigger than him is what made him great! I pointed out 11 titles because you seem to discount his greatest and I decided to show you that the 50 other players you think are better haven’t come close to him in winning.
And Embid’s light ass would be on the bench in the second quarter in foul trouble trying to guard Gilmore, Lanier….not to mention Shaq! Hell Embid had a hard time guarding JA.
And just who are the 50 better than Russ?

I didn't say that Embiid could handle Shaq. I said that he would go to school on Gilmore and Lanier. Prime Shaq would body the hell out of probably every center ever except for maybe Wilt.

Here's fifty guys I would take in a hypothetical draft over Russell (again, keeping with my criteria that I'm taking these guys at their absolute peak regardless of era or what was available to them at the time):

This is not in any order:

#1-#25: my top-25 guys on the first post.

#26: Giannis - Honestly another year or two off of probably catapulting himself into my top-15 if we're being honest. He dwarfs Russell and would destroy him in the post.

#27: Jokic - arguably the most fundamentally skilled big man of all time when you consider his post game, playmaking, dribbling, and mid-range jumper. Defense is not great.

#28: Ewing - Ewing in 1994 put up a season better than any of Russell's best seasons against far better competition (Robinson, Hakeem, Mourning, Shaq).

#29: Dwight - Howard in 2011 was at his absolute peak. His leaping ability and strength outclasses Russell. More efficient on offense. Analytically was one of the better defensive seasons by a big man in the last thirty years as well. Dwight is a meme, but he's still one of the best big men of all time and a first ballot HOFer.

#30: Westbrook - another meme, but this dude had about a three year stretch that was as good as any PG in NBA history.

#31: Yao - prime Yao would have blown Russell's and pretty much anybody else's in the 60s mind except for Wilt.

#32: Harden - Harden in 2018 put together one of the most dominant offensive seasons in NBA history in all facets. His defense historically is not great, but he was above league average in most metrics this season as well. Definitely his best all around season.

#33: Kawhi - more WS/48 in both 2016 and 2017 than Russell had in his greatest seasons (where W/S were heavily inflated for the superstar players). Leonard put together two of the best all-around seasons in league history in those two seasons in terms of a pure mix of offensive and defensive efficiency.

#34: Anthony Davis - has had arguably four seasons better than Russell's best at this point. Bigger, stronger, more skilled on offense, marginally worse (if at all) on defense.

#35: McHale - amazing defender. Far more efficient on offense. Played in a better era and against better competition.

#36: Dr. J - one of the best players in basketball history. Missed out on my top-25 solely because his best years were not in the NBA.

#37: McAdoo - McAdoo from 1973-1976 blows Russell away.

#38: Mourning - this one is pretty close, but Mourning in 1999-2000 had an amazing defensive season that is comparable to the defensive dominance that Russell enacted. He did it against better competition and was far more efficient on offense.

#39: Gobert - I'll catch heat for this one - Gobert's career WS/48 is only slightly worse than Russell's single season best WS/48. More efficient at scoring the ball, worse playmaker. Gobert is the best defensive big man in the league right now and he's also got about three inches and fifty pounds on Russell. I think in a hypothetical matchup where we pluck Russell out of 1964 and Gobert out of 2022, Gobert would be more useful on the floor in an all-time setting where guys like Hakeem, Shaq, and Kareem are also going to be on the floor.

#40: Embiid - better in the past two seasons in PER, WS/48, TS%, and scoring than Russell ever was. He's a 7'0", 280 lb. monster. Russell would have zero chance in being able to stop him if they matched up in the paint.

That's what I've got time for right now (at work). I'm sure those names will be more than enough for me to get ripped apart without me pulling another ten out.

Again, Russell had a more accomplished career (rings, legacy, etc.) than pretty much everybody on this list. I tried to explain my criteria, but let me know if you're still fuzzy on how I evaluated these guys (again, this list was not in any order either).

 

[cavsfever]

It’s funny to imagine @Ohioplayer00 head exploding and steam coming out of his ears as he reads that last post from Stark

 

[Ohioplayer00]

It’s funny to imagine @Ohioplayer00 head exploding and steam coming out of his ears as he reads that last post from Stark

Exactly but reading a list from a guy who’s not even 30 yet never having the opportunity to see the people he omitted from this list (his only experience is watching YouTube videos of them) is comical. And I was under the impression we were talking big men. Of course you can find 50 players better offensively than Russell but shit I can name 50 players better on defense than Harden or Curry.
There’s one man not on this list that would shut down half of the big men he listed (Nate Thurmond)! And the majority of guys on this list are “offensive minded” players so their overall “skill set” is questionable. Yao was a freak of nature at 7’5! Anthony Davis struggles to score against KAT who isn’t all world on defense.
Problem with Stark being a youngster is perception. Being my age I have the advantage of watching players from both eras (IN PERSON) so I can make an objective opinion. His only reference as I mentioned earlier is YouTube videos! Hell he’s not even old enough to have seen MJ in his prime!

 

[KevinLoveFan]

Exactly but reading a list from a guy who’s not even 30 yet never having the opportunity to see the people he omitted from this list (his only experience is watching YouTube videos of them) is comical. And I was under the impression we were talking big men. Of course you can find 50 players better offensively than Russell but shit I can name 50 players better on defense than Harden or Curry.
There’s one man not on this list that would shut down half of the big men he listed (Nate Thurmond)! And the majority of guys on this list are “offensive minded” players so their overall “skill set” is questionable. Yao was a freak of nature at 7’5! Anthony Davis struggles to score against KAT who isn’t all world on defense.
Problem with Stark being a youngster is perception. Being my age I have the advantage of watching players from both eras (IN PERSON) so I can make an objective opinion. His only reference as I mentioned earlier is YouTube videos! Hell he’s not even old enough to have seen MJ in his prime!

Tell 'em, old man!

I'm only 37, but I tried to keep historical respect in my list.

 

[Stark]

Exactly but reading a list from a guy who’s not even 30 yet never having the opportunity to see the people he omitted from this list (his only experience is watching YouTube videos of them) is comical. And I was under the impression we were talking big men. Of course you can find 50 players better offensively than Russell but shit I can name 50 players better on defense than Harden or Curry.
There’s one man not on this list that would shut down half of the big men he listed (Nate Thurmond)! And the majority of guys on this list are “offensive minded” players so their overall “skill set” is questionable. Yao was a freak of nature at 7’5! Anthony Davis struggles to score against KAT who isn’t all world on defense.
Problem with Stark being a youngster is perception. Being my age I have the advantage of watching players from both eras (IN PERSON) so I can make an objective opinion. His only reference as I mentioned earlier is YouTube videos! Hell he’s not even old enough to have seen MJ in his prime!

That’s the fun thing about it I think. I haven’t gotten to see the vast majority of the guys in my top-25 ever play, so all I’ve got to look back on are numbers, limited highlights, and what other folks such as yourself who have more of an insight on the matter say.

I like analytics and advanced stats a lot, and a good chunk of them are not very favorable to Russell but they are to guys like Wilt and Baylor who played in the same era.

The only guys on in my top-10 that I got to watch extensively when they were at the peak of their powers were LeBron and Durant. I got to see Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan too but I missed/was too young to remember some of their great years.

 

[cavsfever]

Ben Taylor makes the argument much more eloquently than I can, but there are a few reasons he gets to in the video below why Russell's impact is better than Wilt and why I think he is in the GOAT tier.

Wilt is a strong candidate too and in the back half of my top 10 but leaving Russell out of the top 25 is really spicy and imo fallacious

Glad someone mentioned Ben Taylor, a great analyst who wrote up the single best Top 40 list ever, based on a simply incredible amount of video and statistical analysis. If you haven't seen it, here is the link:

Thinking Basketball

Thinking Basketball

backpicks.com

It's amazingly good and anyone interested in this issue should read it. One thing that reading it did for me was underline that I am in no way personally qualified to make a top 40 list LOL.

The original list and writeup was done in 2017, and the writeups are still from there, but he updated the ordering in 2019 and (notably) switched Lebron and Jordan, moving Lebron from 3rd up to 2nd behind Kareem and Jordan down to third. I presume Lebron's 2020 title would make that even more certain.

Two things that leap out from his list and discussion:

1) centers rule, there's no substitute for size. Seven out of his top ten are center or center-sized (Duncan, Garnett), and two of the other top 10 (Magic, Lebron) are huge players capable of playing in the paint. Jordan is the only "normal sized" wing in the top 10.

2) defense is really important, at least as important as offense, and this is where the advantage for centers/large players really shows up. A big guy can defend in a way that a smaller guy simply can't.

Ohioplayer would like his list I think, it's not really tilted toward the three point era (although I presume Curry would move up from #20 after this latest year). Curry, Ray Allen, and Reggie Miller are the three point specialists who make his top 40.

He does tend to rank players in terms of how much better they made teams in their era, which is a bit different than what Stark seems to be doing. There's really no other way to do an objective statistical take.

 

[BodegaBayCav]

Okay, so my update. I am pretty sure I posted a similar list elsewhere, so if anything is different from before, its because I forgot what i put down. Number rankings don't make a lot of sense to me, so I will put them in tiers. Unranked within tiers

Tier 1 (4 players)
Lebron
MJ
Russell
Kareem

Tier 2 (5 players)
Bird
Wilt
Duncan
Magic
Shaq

Tier 3 (6 players)
Kobe
Oscar
West
Hakeem
Moses
Steph
KG

Tier 4 (10 players)
Dirk
CP3
Havliceck
Scottie
Chuck
Wade
Dr J
Nash
Zeke
Giannis

Tier 4 itself is probably bigger than this but I cut it off at the first 10 I thought of (apologies to Karl Malone, John Stockton, and Joker)

I like your tier approach. In my mind I add Magic and Bird to Tier 1.
I also move LeBron to tier 2 simply because he destroyed all of the teams assets and then moved on, leaving teams bereft of talent.

 

[macbdog]

I don't want to write a memoir for each selection I make since there's 25 of these guys, so I'm just going to throw my list out there and leave it open for scrutiny.

1. LeBron James (2003-present)
2. Michael Jordan (1984-1993; 1995-1998; 2001-2003)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1970-1989)
4. Shaquille O'Neal (1992-2011)
5. Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1973)
6. Hakeem Olajuwon (1984-2002)
7. Magic Johnson (1979-1991; 1995-1996)
8. Larry Bird (1979-1992)
9. Tim Duncan (1997-2016)
10. Kevin Durant (2008-present)
11. Kobe Bryant (1996-2016)
12. Oscar Robertston (1960-1974)
13. David Robinson (1989-2003)
14. Moses Malone (1976-1995)
15. Kevin Garnett (1995-2016)
16. Dirk Nowitzki (1998-2019)
17. Stephen Curry (2010-present)
18. Chris Paul (2005-present)
19. Scottie Pippen (1988-2004)
20. Dwyane Wade (2003-2019)
21. Charles Barkley (1985-2000)
22. Karl Malone (1985-2004)
23. Jerry West (1960-1974)
24. John Stockton (1985-2003)
25. Elgin Baylor (1958-1972)

No, I didn't forget about Bill Russell.

My only qualm is both Curry and KAJ aren't high enough. And Pistol Pete should be on there over Wade.

 

[cavsfever]

I like your tier approach. In my mind I add Magic and Bird to Tier 1.
I also move LeBron to tier 2 simply because he destroyed all of the teams assets and then moved on, leaving teams bereft of talent.

absurd to put Lebron anywhere but the peak because you are petulant about the Cavs falling off when he left. As Ben Taylor points out, he's the greatest floor raiser in NBA history -- no one but him has been able to drag teams like the 2007 and 2018 Cavs to the Finals. That's why it has always been worth it and paid off for teams to try to maximize the skill around him. Even the Heat would not really have gotten close to the Finals without him, given that from 2012 on Wade was severely limited by his knee injuries.

I think the only legit rap on Lebron for "destroying" a team is his current Lakers squad. First he had them trade away like 80% of their young talent for Davis, which was perhaps understandable and paid off in 2020 at least. But then the Westbrook trade, where he got rid of all the good role players on the squad, really did destroy them and I don't see how they come back.

In the Cavs situation, it was much more an issue with the front office than him, especially the first time around the front office just couldn't find effective trades and consistently made awful choices. The second time around the front office did somewhat better and we are back in playoff contention in the fourth year after he left. The Heat also bounced back quickly.

 

[foucault87]

Glad someone mentioned Ben Taylor, a great analyst who wrote up the single best Top 40 list ever, based on a simply incredible amount of video and statistical analysis. If you haven't seen it, here is the link:

Thinking Basketball

Thinking Basketball

backpicks.com

It's amazingly good and anyone interested in this issue should read it. One thing that reading it did for me was underline that I am in no way personally qualified to make a top 40 list LOL.

The original list and writeup was done in 2017, and the writeups are still from there, but he updated the ordering in 2019 and (notably) switched Lebron and Jordan, moving Lebron from 3rd up to 2nd behind Kareem and Jordan down to third. I presume Lebron's 2020 title would make that even more certain.

Two things that leap out from his list and discussion:

1) centers rule, there's no substitute for size. Seven out of his top ten are center or center-sized (Duncan, Garnett), and two of the other top 10 (Magic, Lebron) are huge players capable of playing in the paint. Jordan is the only "normal sized" wing in the top 10.

2) defense is really important, at least as important as offense, and this is where the advantage for centers/large players really shows up. A big guy can defend in a way that a smaller guy simply can't.

Ohioplayer would like his list I think, it's not really tilted toward the three point era (although I presume Curry would move up from #20 after this latest year). Curry, Ray Allen, and Reggie Miller are the three point specialists who make his top 40.

He does tend to rank players in terms of how much better they made teams in their era, which is a bit different than what Stark seems to be doing. There's really no other way to do an objective statistical take.

A lot of my process is guided by Ben Taylor's approach. I think where I do differ a bit from him is that I factor in some of the off-court/intangible value stuff and in one particularly case my own personal dislike for a certain player (looking at you Karl Malone). I also pretty much rank players on the same idea of championship equity that he does.

I havent dove into the stats anywhere near as much as he has, dont have the time unfortunately, but its one of the most nuanced approaches out there. Honestly the only other ranking this well thought out that I have seen is Bill Simmon's Pyramid in the Book of Basketball which is about 15 years out of date now. Bill ranks players based on how much they knew "the Secret" which is a really complicated way of saying how much did they want to win and play and act to get to that goal. This is your "winningness."

I also think @Stark has shown a pretty interesting approach here even if I strongly disagree with his conclusions.

There is honestly no correct way to rank players in the NBA which is what makes this whole process so fun. We are lucky in some ways that this isn't a sport like ice hockey (Gretzky) or cricket (Tendulkar) that has a super clear GOAT.

 

[Otsego Mar]

I like your tier approach. In my mind I add Magic and Bird to Tier 1.
I also move LeBron to tier 2 simply because he destroyed all of the teams assets and then moved on, leaving teams bereft of talent.

Lmao

 

[cavsfever]

Lmao

I wrote like a 500 word response when I just could have posted this LOL

 

[kidduck]

The argument of Russell being better than Wilt has always been a joke to me.

The rings he won aren't proof that he was a superior player to Wilt. The Celtics had
better talent, including goons to physically punish the other teams best player. Refs
were scared to make calls against the Celtics in the old Garden, more so in the playoffs.

Put Wilt on those vintage Boston teams and they win at least as many rings.

Wilt was absolutely the most dominant player of his era. He hurt himself by his inability
to respect some of his head coaches.

Wilt would be just as dominant in any era. Russell, not so much.


Wilt came into the league weighing about 250 and was up over 300 when he was with Philly as a 76er. In
an interview he claimed his best weight was 275. And he was very strong.

Shaq would have eaten Wilts' lunch off the court, but they would have had epic battles
on the court.

Celtics forward Heinsohn said: "Half the fouls against him were hard fouls ... he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever."

And Tommy would know as he was committing many of those fouls.

 

[Stark]

Don’t even get me started on Bob “Chris Quinn” Cousy.