Start the Debates: Who is your Top-25 All-Time?

[cavsfever]

The argument of Russell being better than Wilt has always been a joke to me.

The rings he won aren't proof that he was a superior player to Wilt. The Celtics had
better talent, including goons to physically punish the other teams best player. Refs
were scared to make calls against the Celtics in the old Garden, more so in the playoffs.

Put Wilt on those vintage Boston teams and they win at least as many rings.

Wilt was absolutely the most dominant player of his era. He hurt himself by his inability
to respect some of his head coaches.

Wilt would be just as dominant in any era. Russell, not so much.


Wilt came into the league weighing about 250 and was up over 300 when he was with Philly as a 76er. In
an interview he claimed his best weight was 275. And he was very strong.

Shaq would have eaten Wilts' lunch off the court, but they would have had epic battles
on the court.

Celtics forward Heinsohn said: "Half the fouls against him were hard fouls ... he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever."

And Tommy would know as he was committing many of those fouls.

Suggest you read Ben Taylor's assessment of Wilt:

Backpicks GOAT: #9 Wilt Chamberlain

Note: This is the first profile in an historical series on the most valuable NBA careers of all-time. Key stats and trends Overrated offensively (scoring blindness) – didn’t create and score…

backpicks.com

Monster athlete but Taylor finds he is overrated on offense because he wasn't a good playmaker and his individual scoring did not benefit the team as much as you'd expect. Also finds he was very turnover prone (although a lot of his career happened before there were definitive turnover stats).

 

[Ohioplayer00]

The funny thing about Wilt is how he influenced the rules change in the game. He was the reason the league came up with the rule you couldn’t leave the FT line until the ball the hit because he was dunking missed FTs before anybody else could get in position. Wilt was the reason they expanded the key area so defenses had a chance of stopping him.

 

[kidduck]

For most of his NBA career, Wilt had a usage rate on offense above 30%. This was because he was a very
skilled, efficient scorer. He dominated the ball due to limited offensive skills of the players
around him. A man with his size and large hands, he did have difficulty with the ball at times. Just like
Shaq, his hand size was partly responsible for his poor FT shooting. His
teammates were also either not reliable shooters or content to let Wilt dominate the ball. Wilt
also was prone to being stubborn , dismissing any suggestions by coaches that he didn't
respect.

Wilt was a great player and all around athlete.

As to his defensive skills, Red Auerbach had a 'strategy' for the Celtics to grab and shove Wilt
to keep him under the Philly basket on FTs so the Celtics could inbounds the ball quickly
off a make and get the ball up court before Wilt could get loose to get upcourt to
guard the paint.

Celtics tried all kinds of tactics to combat Wilt over the years. Red Auerbach never forgot
that he scouted Wilt in his HS days and wanted him to go to a New England college
so Boston could draft him in the then existent territorial draft. Wilt had no interest.
Red wanted to cut down Wilt every after.

As Ohioplayer00 notes, the league changed on-court dimensions and rules because of Wilt.
He changed the game is his own way, just like Curry has done.

 

[foucault87]

For most of his NBA career, Wilt had a usage rate on offense above 30%. This was because he was a very
skilled, efficient scorer. He dominated the ball due to limited offensive skills of the players
around him. A man with his size and large hands, he did have difficulty with the ball at times. Just like
Shaq, his hand size was partly responsible for his poor FT shooting. His
teammates were also either not reliable shooters or content to let Wilt dominate the ball. Wilt
also was prone to being stubborn , dismissing any suggestions by coaches that he didn't
respect.

Wilt was a great player and all around athlete.

As to his defensive skills, Red Auerbach had a 'strategy' for the Celtics to grab and shove Wilt
to keep him under the Philly basket on FTs so the Celtics could inbounds the ball quickly
off a make and get the ball up court before Wilt could get loose to get upcourt to
guard the paint.

Celtics tried all kinds of tactics to combat Wilt over the years. Red Auerbach never forgot
that he scouted Wilt in his HS days and wanted him to go to a New England college
so Boston could draft him in the then existent territorial draft. Wilt had no interest.
Red wanted to cut down Wilt every after.

As Ohioplayer00 notes, the league changed on-court dimensions and rules because of Wilt.
He changed the game is his own way, just like Curry has done.

I would argue he had a massive usage rate because he was a ballhog and an overrated playmaker especially early on. He was also a mediocre defender who would spike the ball into the 5th row and stop playing on that side of the floor after foul 5 to hold up his inane "never fouled out" streak. He was a superb athlete but the man did not care on defense until 1967 and immediately decided he wanted to go get an assist record instead of repeating. You guys think Westbrook stat padded, that was nothing compared to Wilt.

He was still an awesome player and was solidly in my 2nd tier, but all the above is why he was a level below the MJ/Bron/Kareem/Bill Russell tier. And probably lower than the Duncan/Magic/Bird/Steph quartert in my 2nd tier.

I guess also relevant update to my tiers from before is that I move steph from T3 to T2.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

I would argue he had a massive usage rate because he was a ballhog and an overrated playmaker especially early on. He was also a mediocre defender who would spike the ball into the 5th row and stop playing on that side of the floor after foul 5 to hold up his inane "never fouled out" streak. He was a superb athlete but the man did not care on defense until 1967 and immediately decided he wanted to go get an assist record instead of repeating. You guys think Westbrook stat padded, that was nothing compared to Wilt.

He was still an awesome player and was solidly in my 2nd tier, but all the above is why he was a level below the MJ/Bron/Kareem/Bill Russell tier. And probably lower than the Duncan/Magic/Bird/Steph quartert in my 2nd tier.

I guess also relevant update to my tiers from before is that I move steph from T3 to T2.

Been trying to send this link for about 30 mins and couldn’t. But I encourage you to google this article….might change your mind!

Was Wilt Chamberlain Good at Defense?​

Yes. Probably very good.

 

[foucault87]

Been trying to send this link for about 30 mins and couldn’t. But I encourage you to google this article….might change your mind!

Was Wilt Chamberlain Good at Defense?​

Yes. Probably very good.

I think this article underrates Thurmond a bit. Thurmond was probably better on D than old Wilt at the point both were really playing in their primes.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

I think this article underrates Thurmond a bit. Thurmond was probably better on D than old Wilt at the point both were really playing in their primes.

That I agree with!!!

 

[rabman_gold]

In good conscience, I can't make a top 25 list of all time. It wouldn't be accurate and (being 35) I wasn't even alive for half of the league's timespan. So I'll try to give some perspective and thought to each guy I can come up with. I'll try to come up with the better players at each position and some reasoning for their place on any list.

Good luck for those who actually read through this

• Point Guards
  • Magic Johnson
    • An easy choice to any top NBA players list
    • 5 championships, multiple MVPs, very versatile player
    • Not a long career (thanks to an ill-fated early retirement), but very high quality
    • Versatile (guarded all 5 positions in a rookie-championship-clincher, led the league in assists multiple times but also had several high 20-point seasons)
    • As his career passed the first several seasons, he developed a killer instinct to dominate games (something he lacked early on), basically what I call "The IT Factor"; I read it somewhere a long time ago
  • Isiah Thomas
    • He won 2 rings as the lead player
    • He played good offense AND defense
    • 20-10 seasons multiple times
    • Was able to lead his team in high-pressured situations (like his run against the Lakers in the '88 Finals, where he took over)
• Shooting Guards
  • Michael Jordan
    • Also easy to choose
    • 6 rings, multiple MVPs, tremendous stats (especially points)
    • Nearly unguardable because of his developed mid-ranger to go with his explosive run to the hoop
    • Proved to fill up the stat sheet elsewhere (rebounds, assists, steals, blocks)
    • Proved to be an elite defender
    • Always had an edge, and an obsession with winning, willing to change parts of his game to improve the team
    • He was able to dominate in an era that was dominated by centers (Olajuwon, O'Neal, Robinson, Ewing, etc)
  • Kobe Bryant
    • Longevity (20 seasons)
    • A very similar game to Jordan (one could say a "copycat"), this would serve as some proof that Jordan might've dominated in other eras, no?
• Small Forwards
  • LeBron James
    • A pretty long career, but not yet over?
    • Durable
    • "The King" was the "king-of-all-trades"? 30,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 10,000 assists?
    • He managed to win championships with 3 different teams (despite several seasons had ended prematurely)
    • He also racked up MVPs as well
    • And winning 4 championships alone makes him one of the best SFs to do so as the best on his team
  • Larry Bird
    • 3 championships, multiple MVPs
    • A cerebral player, with court vision that rivals the greatest point guards
    • An incredible shooter, he might've netted 3,000 3 pointers in a different era
    • He was versatile like his rival Magic, but rather than as a point guard, Bird played both forward spots
• Power Forwards
  • Tim Duncan
    • 5 championships, multiple MVPs, longevity, a proven track record, and fundamentally sound
    • Despite being 7 feet tall, did most of his damage as a power forward with a good mid-ranger
    • Just as good defensively as the rest of them, and a great leader to boot
• Centers
  • It's not fair. There's too many who've impacted the game. So I can't list these guys. But I can try to give my thoughts.
    • Wilt Chamberlain
      • Wilt is the best statistically. He dominated in certain areas (points and rebounds) and proved he could dominate in others (assists). The one thing that was missed from the videos is that he actually played every minute of the 1962 regular season. Apparently, Phil Jackson challenged Shaq to do the same in 2000, but couldn't. Wilt was a true specimen. If he had not been a nice-guy, he could've really made life miserable for the rest of the league.
    • Bill Russell
      • Bill Russell is the most successful ever. Sure, it was a time when there were only 1/3 of today's NBA. But constantly dominating playoff run after playoff run meant other teams were constantly gunning them. In my opinion, what he had that the majority lacked in the 60s: Leadership. You're the one being counted on to win every possible game. Set by example. And coach by example.
    • Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
      • I think Kareem could be the best of both worlds: Russell's winning and Wilt's domination. He also had durability, an unguardable sky hook, great agility honed by his training in the martial arts, among others. Only 6 rings, but was always one of the best on many contenders (MVPs). And he's one of the few to have gone up against both Wilt and Hakeem and beaten them.
    • Hakeem Olajuwon
      • Such a short peak. But an all-time defender. Incredible footwork and motor. Probably had some of the best skill for a center all-time. Not sure I'd have him #1, but he certainly has a case for top 25.
    • Shaquille O'Neal
      • Another polarizing player. Physically dominant. And damn strong. If Wilt had some of O'Neal's meaness, Wilt would've been even better. But he did dominate for a short period. But he was also very lazy. Could've been better.
    • George Mikan, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Etc
      • Guys looking outside in. Each have their place in the sport's history. Don't have the words for them at this moment.

Looking at it, I only got to put my thoughts on 13 guys. Not a ranking, but thought-provoking.

 

[PIP]

 

[foucault87]

What about God shammgod, skip to my lou, or Broderick Thomas?

 

[Ohioplayer00]

What about God shammgod, skip to my lou, or Broderick Thomas?

Tim Hardaway anybody???

 

[foucault87]

Given the talk in the Lebron Stats thread figured id bump this

 

[Ohioplayer00]

Yeah this IS the place for this discussion.

 

[Stark]

Going to have to redo my top-25 and tweak it a bit. Curry’s season and postseason is worth a bit of a bump up.

 

[guitarguy]

1. Magic Johnson - Yes I have him number 1. He had to retire at 31 because he got HIV. I wonder if Michael and the Bulls would have had that first 3 peat if he didn't retire. And before anyone says he was slowing down his last full season he averaged 19 points 12.5 assists 7 rebounds. He was still doing his thing. And he retired in his prime. Had 5 championships at the point he retired. Easily could have gotten 1 or 2 if he played 5 more seasons. Lakers went from 58 wins in 90-91 to 43 wins in 91-92. Only real change to roster was Magic calling it quits.

2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabar
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Wilt Chamberlin
10. Bill Russell

This is a fun take. While I'm not sure I totally agree, I don't have a problem with this thought process at all.

There is a couple other players I think, geez, if they wouldn't have got hurt or whatever, they probably make this list too, and for some, continuing to play actually lowered their stock overall (maybe not top 25, but Derrick Rose for instance still playing actually hurts how unreal he really was a couple seasons).

But I've also always had a soft spot for Magic. He was probably my favorite player to watch as a kid and I wasn't even a Lakers fan or whatever.