The Paul George Safari: LeBron Strikes Back!

[buzzdog]

The Cavs are constrained by a few different things, and they are serious obstacles.

One, there is an obvious reluctance or even refusal for a lot of the teams, especially those in the Eastern Conference, to do anything that will in any way help the Cavs. Exhibit A was what Indy did. We'll see what happens with Carmello and DWade. But be sure that we're paddling against the current trying to make any move whatsoever that makes the Cavs even more dominant in the East.

Second, we've been up against the hard cap for a longer period of time than our competitors, especially the Warriors. That has seriously hobbled any flexibility. We've HAD to re-sign our own players at premium prices because we had NO other choice. We could NOT replace the guys we overpaid with anything close to comparable players because of the cap rules. We've been operating with both hands tied behind our backs ever since we signed KLove, Kyrie and Lebron to what were max contracts at the time of the signings.

Griffin was pretty creative at creating options and player movement with damn near zero assets and he did what he felt was the best he could given his restrictions. Gilbert to his credit has paid out near record amounts of cap tax to facilitate Griffin's moves.

But the downside to the way this has all fallen out is, the moves Griff were never the best moves that he would have done if there were no hard cap restrictions. The moves he made were always less than perfect because they were damn near the only moves he could make at the time. He did the best he could given that we had both hands tied behind our backs.

Now we're suffering the all too predictable consequences of overpaying less than perfect players out of need and the almost desperation created by having to put a team around Lebron to maximize his window and keep him happy. We ended up with older players because they're smart, experienced, but above all, they're cheap and willing to play for less. Younger players with upside always want more money, we can only get guys on the downside of their careers who are already pretty much financially set. Or overpay for the younger guys especially if they're already on our roster, because we can't sign free agents because of the cap.

 

[Gus Zing]

Difference between JR and Iggy's situations besides resume and two way ability is people were actually willing to give Iggy that amount if the warriors didn't pony up.

So JR signs for 12 mill instead of 14 mill. How much better does that make people feel? Still the same player. Still the same issues.

There was the chance Philly was going to give him the $ anyway.

Sources told ESPN that Smith and the Cavs came to terms Friday night on a pact that will guarantee the mercurial shooting guard $45 million over the next three seasons.


The fourth season of the contract is not fully guaranteed, sources told ESPN's Brian Windhorst, at which point Smith will be 34. But sources say Smith's final season will become fully guaranteed unless the Cavs waive him shortly after the 2018-19 season.

Sources told ESPN that, after weeks of scant progress, interest this week from the Philadelphia 76ers in Smith might have helped sparked negotiations with the Cavaliers. The Sixers have roughly $27 million in salary-cap space and, as seen during the summer under new general manager Bryan Colangelo, made a legitimate push to try to sign Manu Ginobili away from the San Antonio Spurs.

I mean what were people realistically expecting us to sign JR for? And how much of a difference would it really have made?

 

[Chris Parker]

The Cavs are constrained by a few different things, and they are serious obstacles.

One, there is an obvious reluctance or even refusal for a lot of the teams, especially those in the Eastern Conference, to do anything that will in any way help the Cavs. Exhibit A was what Indy did. We'll see what happens with Carmello and DWade. But be sure that we're paddling against the current trying to make any move whatsoever that makes the Cavs even more dominant in the East.

Not every team subscribes to this. Indeed Pritchard caught heat for it, obviously. And it's not just the Cavs that get skewered. Wouldn't trade PG to Cavs (arguably) top EC competitor either.

Second, we've been up against the hard cap for a longer period of time than our competitors, especially the Warriors. That has seriously hobbled any flexibility. We've HAD to re-sign our own players at premium prices because we had NO other choice. We could NOT replace the guys we overpaid with anything close to comparable players because of the cap rules. We've been operating with both hands tied behind our backs ever since we signed KLove, Kyrie and Lebron to what were max contracts at the time of the signings.

Yet Love & Kyrie's contracts are actually very friendly. Those weren't the contracts that screwed us. TT & JR screwed us. Especially when TT had LITERALLY no options left and Cavs gave him the money. When you talk about a $2-$4M difference per annum (each) you're also talking about the difference between being short of the hardcap apron and being hardcapped.

Griffin was pretty creative at creating options and player movement with damn near zero assets and he did what he felt was the best he could given his restrictions. Gilbert to his credit has paid out near record amounts of cap tax to facilitate Griffin's moves.

It could be argued that Griffin had plenty of assets and blew through them w/o ever doing offseason work that could complement it. Team has had 3 useless players on the end of the bench since Griffin came. What if they were cultivating a Jonathan Simmons or Patty Mills in that slot instead of letting Brendan Haywood and Mo Williams suck at DG's tit?

But the downside....

Seems pretty predictable.

There is no denying the DG's job was tough, and he performed like a solid B student. He made some magic with trades, but didn't do much of anything else developmentally to help team.

 

[RyanStackAttack]

George-to-Cleveland bias aside, K. Love outlet-passes to Westbrook in transition is something I would be interested in seeing as a general basketball fan.

 

[buzzdog]

There is no denying the DG's job was tough, and he performed like a solid B student. He made some magic with trades, but didn't do much of anything else developmentally to help team.

I can agree with this. That's why even though I have defended Griff in the past I don't shed any tears now that he's moved on.

We still pay the price for blown picks like Bennet, (and you can feel free to add all the other blown picks and FA acquisitions over the past decade).

Griff could have done better, but it's not all that easy to even do many revisionist history exercises to find the better choices that were part of the conventional wisdom at the time the decisions were made. In hindsight anyone can point out the obvious flaws that have led to the hole we're in as far as being able to get younger/longer/quicker. Griff and Gilbert really needed a crystal ball. They certainly could have tried a different strategy but Griff believes in all offense, outside shooting, and let defense sort itself out.

 

[Kizzle]

He left that team after they got smacked by the Spurs, and I will never question what he did to bring a championship to Cleveland, especially with how that series started.

That said, LeBron, like a lot of NBA players, and rightfully so, do what's best for them. That's all I'm saying. We can't acknowledge that as CAVS fans?

Its perfectly fine to acknowledge that but its a fact it would be a dick move to leave now unless when he left he helped replenish our draft picks. Knowing todays NBA if he left itd be to a team like Golden State who is already really good so any picks we got would be high worthless picks.

But I also kind of agree that he shouldn't HAVE to help us in such a way if he leaves. Im just saying itd be a dick move because now hes probably turned Kyrie against us too.

 

[shoes22]

Not every team subscribes to this. Indeed Pritchard caught heat for it, obviously. And it's not just the Cavs that get skewered. Wouldn't trade PG to Cavs (arguably) top EC competitor either.

Not completely true...

Pritchard was still willing to send George to the Celtics, if Boston was willing to surrender their 2018 Brooklyn pick, which they were not.

 

[godfather]

I hear Stephen A Smith when he says Bron doesn't owe us anything but if he leaves us high and dry after all this he's a POS

I'll never get why people think players are owed to one team their entire career.

Has LeBron not given us a lot more, than we've given him in return?

Came back to a lottery team, after coming off a mini-dynasty. He didn't have to do that.

Promised to win us a championship. He did.

Far as I'm concern, LB has done us way more favors than we have done him. He didn't have to come back here. And he only did, at all, because he loves the people in Akron/Cleveland and felt bad about leaving them. He wanted to deliver something special to the people here.

He could have gone to say, Washington, and play with John Wall and Bradley Beal, and they'd be going to the finals every single year. He did us a favor, not the other way around.

Sure, Kyrie Irving being here didn't hurt his decision and played a factor, too, but it's not like we were on the verge of dynasty with the team we had in place.

Do I like everything he does? No. But, man guys, be a little grateful for what he's done.

Players aren't obliged to stay their entire careers on one team. I never understand how it's okay, and just business when an organization can trade players away.

But if a player decides to leave in free-agency; that it's betrayal and personal.

If LeBron wants to leave. He's obligated to do so. That doesn't make him a POS, IMO. LeBron didn't leave us high and dry. He delivered us a championship.

There's nothing wrong with a player doing everything he could, then moving on after.

I know fans hate it. But LeBron is 33 going into this season, and wants to win titles. If we've peaked and can't do it anymore. And finds a better situation where he can, well, I'm not going to fault him.

 

[godfather]

He left that team after they got smacked by the Spurs, and I will never question what he did to bring a championship to Cleveland, especially with how that series started.

That said, LeBron, like a lot of NBA players, and rightfully so, do what's best for them. That's all I'm saying. We can't acknowledge that as CAVS fans?

This.

And why does that make someone so bad, too? Everyone is being a hypocrite, if you don't make decisions that are best for yourself, and aren't always completely selfless.

LeBron has shown to be selfless, too. Like I said, he didn't have to come back, and chose to do so. Because he has some decency in him.

It'd be embarrassing if we really acted the way we did the first time he left, again, if he decides it's time to move on, again.

The guy gave us a title. So many of fans swore that's all they wanted him to do. He did it, and here we are, ready to say fuck you if you leave.

It's not personal if he leaves. He's not saying I don't like it here, or I don't want to be here.

Fans should understand that. He never chose to leave Cleveland because he rather be in Miami. He picked a better chance to win a title, and one of his best friends was there. When you put that into perspective, it's not that bad, right?

Sure, the decision shit on TV was bad, and looked awful. But it's not like he pulled a Durant. Totally pussy out in a series, then run to that team like a coward.

LeBron has carried every single team he's ever played on, including the Heat.

He's never had it the easy way; he's just a realistic and knows you can't do it without talent either.

 

[RyanStackAttack]

The beauty of the George deal for OKC is that they can still field all those offers Pritchard received and move him again if he finds a better deal to reshape his team. They can always default to the position of seeing how he plays with Russ.

Brilliant move by Presti.

 

[Kizzle]

I'll never get why people think players are owed to one team their entire career.

Has LeBron not given us a lot more, than we've given him in return?

Came back to a lottery team, after coming off a mini-dynasty. He didn't have to do that.

Promised to win us a championship. He did.

Far as I'm concern, LB has done us way more favors than we have done him. He didn't have to come back here. And he only did, at all, because he loves the people in Akron/Cleveland and felt bad about leaving them. He wanted to deliver something special to the people here.

He could have gone to say, Washington, and play with John Wall and Bradley Beal, and they'd be going to the finals every single year. He did us a favor, not the other way around.

Sure, Kyrie Irving being here didn't hurt his decision and played a factor, too, but it's not like we were on the verge of dynasty with the team we had in place.

Do I like everything he does? No. But, man guys, be a little grateful for what he's done.

Players aren't obliged to stay their entire careers on one team. I never understand how it's okay, and just business when an organization can trade players away.

But if a player decides to leave in free-agency; that it's betrayal and personal.

If LeBron wants to leave. He's obligated to do so. That doesn't make him a POS, IMO. LeBron didn't leave us high and dry. He delivered us a championship.

There's nothing wrong with a player doing everything he could, then moving on after.

I know fans hate it. But LeBron is 33 going into this season, and wants to win titles. If we've peaked and can't do it anymore. And finds a better situation where he can, well, I'm not going to fault him.

Im ok with him leaving. But hes the one who used his power to influence us to makes moves. Hes the reason why we had to trade picks and screw ourselves over until probably 2021. I do applaud him for putting pressure on Dan Gilbert to spend but LeBron chose the wrong guys to get and pay. And as a Cavs fan and a person I feel he owes us in that regard. We gave JR and Shump 4 year deals all because of LeBron. TT got 16 million a year because LeBron basically forced us to. Remember that NONE of our players had a market for them in free agency because LeBron had let it be known that he was forcing Gilbert to sign all of them back at any cost.



In a situation like KD or Wade last year im totally ok with guys doing whats best for them.

But when you played such an influential role in the moves we made, while at the same time keeping the door open to screw over your teammates but not signing a long term deal then I think I have the right to feel if he left us now that hes a douche.



He got us a ring so the way I feel he doesn't owe us anything else on the court. But if hes gonna leave us again while we have a decent window to win after all the moves he made I feel right in thinking hed owe it to us to help us survive without him

 

[sleepmaster]

Not completely true...

Pritchard was still willing to send George to the Celtics, if Boston was willing to surrender their 2018 Brooklyn pick, which they were not.

Pritchard knew Ainge would never bid against himself when he had the top offer.

Pritchard was petulantly getting back at Paul George for gut-punching him as Pritchard so eloquently described it. I don't believe it was just a desire to keep George from an eastern conference competitor. It's hard to believe the Lakers or Rockets wouldn't top what Presti gave him.

Pritchard's thought process:
Send him to Boston? Nope. If Hayward followed him, he could win there...
Cavs? No thanks. Him and Lebron can shove it!
Lakers? They lose a lot but he wants to play for his hometown. Not happening.
Rockets? He could enjoy playing with Harden and Paul. I don't think so.
Thunder? Bad contract and a guy who can't play? Who cares, no one fucks with me!

Presti's thought process:
I got this as long as I keep my mouth shut about later trading George to the Cavs.

 

[wremy]

Pritchard knew Ainge would never bid against himself when he had the top offer.

Pritchard was petulantly getting back at Paul George for gut-punching him as Pritchard so eloquently described it. I don't believe it was just a desire to keep George from an eastern conference competitor. It's hard to believe the Lakers or Rockets wouldn't top what Presti gave him.

Pritchard's thought process:
Send him to Boston? Nope. If Hayward followed him, he could win there...
Cavs? No thanks. Him and Lebron can shove it!
Lakers? They lose a lot but he wants to play for his hometown. Not happening.
Rockets? He could enjoy playing with Harden and Paul. I don't think so.
Thunder? Bad contract and a guy who can't play? Who cares, no one fucks with me!

Presti's thought process:
I got this as long as I keep my mouth shut about later trading George to the Cavs.

Thunder are not trading PG to the Cavs ... They stole him and will keep him

 

[godfather]

Im ok with him leaving. But hes the one who used his power to influence us to makes moves. Hes the reason why we had to trade picks and screw ourselves over until probably 2021.

But how do we know that? And for the record, when you have a veteran/generational player like LeBron, you should be going for it now. What do late first round picks really do? Sure, it'd be nice to develop talent, but we've never been good at that in Cleveland.

We don't know if LeBron was the one lobbying to get players like Frye and Korver, for example. There's never been any evidence he was the driving point directly of such deals.

If you didn't like those players, then I'd be upset at management more than LeBron.

I do applaud him for putting pressure on Dan Gilbert to spend but LeBron chose the wrong guys to get and pay. And as a Cavs fan and a person I feel he owes us in that regard. We gave JR and Shump 4 year deals all because of LeBron. TT got 16 million a year because LeBron basically forced us to. Remember that NONE of our players had a market for them in free agency because LeBron had let it be known that he was forcing Gilbert to sign all of them back at any cost.

Every great player is going to put pressure on the owner to improve.

One, Shump's deal had nothing to do with LeBron, IMO. He's not a Rich Paul client.

And the TT and JR deals didn't get done, right away. And say you feel both of them were overpaid. I think TT's deal was pretty fair for market value.

One, we were over the cap regardless. Two, we couldn't let those guys walk. Neither of those things, I feel have very much to do with what we can, or can't do going forward.

In a situation like KD or Wade last year im totally ok with guys doing whats best for them.

But when you played such an influential role in the moves we made, while at the same time keeping the door open to screw over your teammates but not signing a long term deal then I think I have the right to feel if he left us now that hes a douche.

LeBron has never signed a long-term contract is his career. Why is he a douche for always being smart and savvy enough to keep his options open?

He got us a ring so the way I feel he doesn't owe us anything else on the court. But if hes gonna leave us again while we have a decent window to win after all the moves he made I feel right in thinking hed owe it to us to help us survive without him

The only move, we really made for him was trading Wiggins for Love. I'd do that trade again, in a minute. Wiggins is ass.

Two, signing guys like James Jones, Birdman, and Mike Miller. Hardly moves that hurts us, in any way.

Three, sure we might have overpaid guys like TT and JR. But these guys are quality players that were pivotal in our championship run, and we'd have been capped out regardless.

It's hard to sit here and say LeBron really screwed our franchise over such trivial moves. We'd be in this situation regardless.

 

[sleepmaster]

Thunder are not trading PG to the Cavs ... They stole him and will keep him

What if George says trade me to CLE or I'll end up in LA and you lose me for nothing