The Transgender Issue

[Tlyons]

Laurel Hubbard, you mean?

On the Women's or the Men's team? I'm not being snarky, just unsure of which leage you're saying that was score was done in (and what you're implying it means).

Edit: yes, Laural Hubbard

Yes, Womens team.

I'm just noting this because it seems she's being presented as besting every woman who has ever participated in that event. The reality is there have been a number of women to top that score(7 in Rio).

They did studies and set standards. She met them.

The (relatively new) study in the article I posted says that the hormone therapy trans women athletes go through reduces strength, size, speed, and bone density as well as lowering testosterone to the same levels as other female competitors.

I mean is this the case you want to hang your hat on to call for an entire new category of athletes?

 

[David.]

Edit: yes, Laural Hubbard

Yes, Womens team.

I'm just noting this because it seems she's being presented as besting every woman who has ever participated in that event. The reality is there have been a number of women to top that score(7 in Rio).

They did studies and set standards. She met them.

The (relatively new) study in the article I posted says that the hormone therapy trans women athletes go through reduces strength, size, speed, and bone density as well as lowering testosterone to the same levels as other female competitors.

I mean is this the case you want to hang your hat on to call for an entire new category of athletes?

Do you readily have the standards available? Its fine if you don't. I personally want to see them before reacting

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJWQgcxeZ4Q

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Do you readily have the standards available? Its fine if you don't. I personally want to see them before reacting

Doctors don't even agree on it -- impossible to separate the social justice warrior impulse from objective determinations. Consider the number of transwomen as a percentage of the total population, the consider the percentage able to compete at a high level in women's sports.

It flatly isn't fair. You simply cannot undo everything nature did -- skeletal structure alone is different.

 

[Wrathe]

Edit: yes, Laural Hubbard

Yes, Womens team.

I'm just noting this because it seems she's being presented as besting every woman who has ever participated in that event. The reality is there have been a number of women to top that score(7 in Rio).

They did studies and set standards. She met them.

The (relatively new) study in the article I posted says that the hormone therapy trans women athletes go through reduces strength, size, speed, and bone density as well as lowering testosterone to the same levels as other female competitors.

I mean is this the case you want to hang your hat on to call for an entire new category of athletes?

Thanks for the clarification there. Read it a few times and didn't want to assume.

So I try and answer these questions from the perspective of, "if it were my child". Honestly, I don't think there's any feasibility to another category of athletes. It won't sustain. If it were my child, I know I'd have tried directing away from any competition where this would be an issue. If they were insistent, man, that'd be a tough conversation, but from a value perspective, I just don't think it's the right thing to do. It's not fair to them, but it's not fair to everyone else either.

Don't take it like I'm reveling in my position or having fun suggesting the taking away of Laurel's right to wrestle w/ the girls. It's a crappy situation.

 

[David.]

Doctors don't even agree on it -- impossible to separate the social justice warrior impulse from objective determinations. Consider the number of transwomen as a percentage of the total population, the consider the percentage able to compete at a high level in women's sports.

It flatly isn't fair. You simply cannot undo everything nature did -- skeletal structure alone is different.

Thats my gut reaction, but i at least want to examine the studies or decisions.

If this person is middle of the pack competing as a male but winning a medal in every year the competition has been run based on her performance as a "female", my reaction is to reject the conclusion that the science has been perfected.

 

[DJTJ]

There's a lack of understanding about differences in FtM and MtF trans people.

In terms of societal acceptance, FtM are much less represented as transpeople because they're simply accepted at a higher rate. It's more acceptable to be FtM than MtF. It takes less treatment. It's overall a more seamless transition.

The reason you get a disproportionate uproar about sports is because of the stigma of MtF and it being an unfair advantage.

http://www.wtol.com/story/32053619/transgender-student-athlete-breaks-barriers-at-bgsu

In reality, guys? The issues trans people face are a lot more than sports.

 

[David.]

There's a lack of understanding about differences in FtM and MtF trans people.

In terms of societal acceptance, FtM are much less represented as transpeople because they're simply accepted at a higher rate. It's more acceptable to be FtM than MtF. It takes less treatment. It's overall a more seamless transition.

The reason you get a disproportionate uproar about sports is because of the stigma of MtF and it being an unfair advantage.

http://www.wtol.com/story/32053619/transgender-student-athlete-breaks-barriers-at-bgsu

In reality, guys? The issues trans people face are a lot more than sports.

The argument is we're redefining "male and female" to be an opinion rather than based on biology.

In doing so, you damage institutions that have separated sexes based on biology for legitimate reasons and CREATE victims in the process.

No one wants to make life more difficult for trans people.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I'd say it should largely be left up to the leagues or whoever runs each individual event. If they want to establish standards for the inclusion of transgender athletes, fine. If they don't, also fine.

 

[David.]

I'd say it should largely be left up to the leagues or whoever runs each individual event. If they want to establish standards for the inclusion of transgender athletes, fine. If they don't, also fine.

Interested to see Qs take, i imagine he's conflicted on your response.

Men have won womens cycling, women's wrestling, womens mma, womens weightlifting.. And woman of the year. (..reddit)

At what point do women have a legitimate gripe? Dont women have the right to compete against other women?

 

[Jack Brickman]

Interested to see Qs take, i imagine he's conflicted on your response.

Men have won womens cycling, women's wrestling, womens mma, womens weightlifting.. And woman of the year. (..reddit)

At what point do women have a legitimate gripe? Dont women have the right to compete against other women?

Ironically, my stance is pretty Republican. Let the businesses decide what's best individually and largely keep the government out of it.

Personally, I would think the best way would be for leagues to poll their members and see how they feel before making a decision. If the majority of people in the league are in favor of allowing transgender athletes, provided of course they meet certain hormonal standards, go for it. If the majority disapprove, don't.

I do agree that this is a tricky subject. It's not one that particularly impacts me, though, so I'm more inclined to let the people who are actually involved and impacted make the decisions on it.

 

[David.]

Ironically, my stance is pretty Republican. Let the businesses decide what's best individually and largely keep the government out of it.

Personally, I would think the best way would be for leagues to poll their members and see how they feel before making a decision. If the majority of people in the league are in favor of allowing transgender athletes, provided of course they meet certain hormonal standards, go for it. If the majority disapprove, don't.

I do agree that this is a tricky subject. It's not one that particularly impacts me, though, so I'm more inclined to let the people who are actually involved and impacted make the decisions on it.

And i dont want to punish those that take the risks and force their hand (which i was trying to discuss w Q in the other thread), but there are many situations where freedoms and rights are being compromised in both directions.

In the employee/employer scenario, if the answer is simply"the calculus leans to erring on the side of freedom for the enterprise", ill accept it and as a consolation accept that the employee with dissenting opinion can find a different employer..

With this, im leaning more conservative.. They can simply be wrong and unjust in their decision and standards. If you can choose to allow men to compete with women because its your league, thats a corrupt league. You can choose to allow men into womens prisons, and it can be wrong and women get murdered and raped.

I dont want to look at this one from an ideological perspective. Theres just science and fair and unfair. It just seems obvious to not have men infiltrate womens sports.

 

[David.]

Based on little research, ive seen that there are disparities in bone density, reaction time, grip strength, broader shoulders, upper body strength, even after hormone therapy.

The 1 year mark that the weightlifter cleared was not the 2 year mark established and generally accepted by scientists in the field.

While hormone therapy reduces the advantage of biological males in many categories to the point it would be unfair to compete aginst other top males, it does not equalize their bodies in regards to other women, even those with abnormal abilities.

Joe Rogan leans left, is much more educated on these specific sciences than I, and he rejects that fallon fox should be able to compete against females.

 

[Wrathe]

If they don't, also fine.

It's not though, you get the Angry Mob coming if you don't.

I don't mean to be insensitive by asking this, but I'm asking in terms of logic. Everyone keeps saying Trans is a very small %, all these issues are being blown out of proportion, etc. etc. If all that is so, why is such a small % of the population dominating such a large part of the conversation (nationally speaking, this thread its obvious)? Why would that small of a % be allowed to force the end of a gender binary environment, from a black and white issue (not race) to an entire deep spectrum of grayscale.

You can't say its big enough of an issue that needs dealt with and then say it's not that big enough of a population to worry about the issues stemming from it.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It's not though, you get the Angry Mob coming if you don't.

I don't mean to be insensitive by asking this, but I'm asking in terms of logic. Everyone keeps saying Trans is a very small %, all these issues are being blown out of proportion, etc. etc. If all that is so, why is such a small % of the population dominating such a large part of the conversation? Why would that small of a % be allowed to force the end of a gender binary environment, from a black and white issue (not race) to an entire deep spectrum of grayscale.

You can't say its big enough of an issue that needs dealt with and then say it's not that big enough of a population to worry about the issues stemming from it.

I mean, I haven't seen a whole lot of controversy regarding transgender people being kept out of sports, at least for their original gender. The controversy has mostly been directed toward the few who have been allowed to participate and done well. Which is fine. I think that's a genuinely good debate. However, it doesn't support your argument at all.

The only reason you see transgender rights pop up constantly is because certain states are passing laws that essentially legalize the discrimination of transgender individuals. My state was one of them, so I've seen this all first-hand. If the Republican state legislature had simply ignored Charlotte's ordinance passed to protect the rights of transgender individuals which, mind you, was a city ordinance in a very liberal city that didn't impact the rest of the state (which, aside from a few larger cities, is largely rural red), no one would have cared. It became a huge issue because state Republicans overcompensated and passed a law that allowed for discrimination against those same individuals and also gay people in general as well. That's what made it an issue.

If they had just ignored it, you might have seen similar legislation pop up in other liberal areas of the state, but by and large that would have been it. Instead, it turned everyone against our state legislature. It cost our governor his job (rightfully). It cost my city hundreds of millions of dollars (we lost the All-Star Game) and hundreds of jobs.

The transgender rights movement is slowly becoming the new gay rights movement. It's yet another thing that we'll likely all look back on in ten years and realize that everyone was getting worked up over nothing, and like gays now these people will largely be accepted.