The Transgender Issue

[David.]

I mean, I haven't seen a whole lot of controversy regarding transgender people being kept out of sports, at least for their original gender. The controversy has mostly been directed toward the few who have been allowed to participate and done well. Which is fine. I think that's a genuinely good debate. However, it doesn't support your argument at all.

The only reason you see transgender rights pop up constantly is because certain states are passing laws that essentially legalize the discrimination of transgender individuals. My state was one of them, so I've seen this all first-hand. If the Republican state legislature had simply ignored Charlotte's ordinance passed to protect the rights of transgender individuals which, mind you, was a city ordinance in a very liberal city that didn't impact the rest of the state (which, aside from a few larger cities, is largely rural red), no one would have cared. It became a huge issue because state Republicai overcompensated and passed a law that allowed for discrimination against those same individuals and also gay people in general as well. That's what made it an issue.

If they had just ignored it, you might have seen similar legislation pop up in other liberal areas of the state, but by and large that would have been it. Instead, it turned everyone against our state legislature. It cost our governor his job (rightfully). It cost my city hundreds of millions of dollars (we lost the All-Star Game) and hundreds of jobs.

The transgender rights movement is slowly becoming the new gay rights movement. It's yet another thing that we'll likely all look back on in ten years and realize that everyone was getting worked up over nothing, and like gays now these people will largely be accepted.

But

Ironically, my stance is pretty Republican. Let the businesses decide what's best individually and largely keep the government out of it

Gay marriage is an entirely different discussion. Just because a victim group is being pushed to the forefront doesnt mean theres equivalence. Thats just how it's being framed.

 

[Wrathe]

I mean, I haven't seen a whole lot of controversy regarding transgender people being kept out of sports, at least for their original gender. The controversy has mostly been directed toward the few who have been allowed to participate and done well. Which is fine. I think that's a genuinely good debate. However, it doesn't support your argument at all.

The only reason you see transgender rights pop up constantly is because certain states are passing laws that essentially legalize the discrimination of transgender individuals. My state was one of them, so I've seen this all first-hand. If the Republican state legislature had simply ignored Charlotte's ordinance passed to protect the rights of transgender individuals which, mind you, was a city ordinance in a very liberal city that didn't impact the rest of the state (which, aside from a few larger cities, is largely rural red), no one would have cared. It became a huge issue because state Republicans overcompensated and passed a law that allowed for discrimination against those same individuals and also gay people in general as well. That's what made it an issue.

The transgender rights movement is slowly becoming the new gay rights movement. It's yet another thing that we'll likely all look back on in ten years and realize that everyone was getting worked up over nothing, and like gays now these people will largely be accepted.

I get you, and to be fair, I really have nothing against anyone on some systemic level. Maybe for me its the forcing the gray I spoke of above and the resentment that comes along w/ that. I get that's a me problem, but yes, I'm "fatigued" when it comes to the social outrage around it, and I know its not popular and I'll get crucified for saying it, but I don't know how else to communicate if not being honest, it still feels like a mental delusion thing to me and I feel like society is getting drug along on someone else's delusion.

Let me be clear. I FEEL GUILTY ALREADY FOR FEELING THAT WAY. Congratulations, your social efforts have succeeded. The desired stance has permeated my conscious to make me feel guilty over it, but regardless, it's still tough to shake that feeling. Then it's tough to shake the question of should I be trying to change it in the first place or am I allowing myself to be swayed by popular opinion. So much introspection.

Seriously though, I'm putting myself out there and taking that risk to try and understand, I'm not climbing into The Rack out of some masochistic desire to be punished here. Take it easy on me.

 

[Jack Brickman]

But

That was my stance on competitive sports leagues or events/tournaments, which inherently rely on sets of rules and regulations to govern fair play. When you're using athleticism as a means to measure accomplishment and award people with prizes or money, you need to ensure that there is fairness for those involved. Thus, I largely believe it's up to those leagues or event runners to determine what qualifies as fairness. We know there are physical differences between men and women, so thus there need to be appropriate rules governing the inclusion of trans individuals to ensure fair play.

As far as businesses in general go, I think that trans individuals should have the same rights and protections as anyone else. I don't really think that's hypocritical. I think it's practical. A former man entering a women's lifting tournament should be subject to certain rules and regulations to ensure fairness for the women involved. A former man applying to be a computer programmer should be judged on the merit of his qualifications, and the fact that he used to be a man and now identifies as a woman shouldn't be a factor.

 

[David.]

That was my stance on competitive sports leagues or events/tournaments, which inherently rely on sets of rules and regulations to govern fair play. When you're using athleticism as a means to measure accomplishment and award people with prizes or money, you need to ensure that there is fairness for those involved. Thus, I largely believe it's up to those leagues or event runners to determine what qualifies as fairness. We know there are physical differences between men and women, so thus there need to be appropriate rules governing the inclusion of trans individuals to ensure fair play.

As far as businesses in general go, I think that trans individuals should have the same rights and protections as anyone else. I don't really think that's hypocritical. I think it's practical. A former man entering a women's lifting tournament should be subject to certain rules and regulations to ensure fairness for the women involved. A former man applying to be a computer programmer should be judged on the merit of his qualifications, and the fact that he used to be a man and now identifies as a woman shouldn't be a factor.

Do you think people have the right to choose which bathroom they use? This isnt really a right, thats more framing. Along with what wrathe is experiencing as a result; he's backwards and should be ashamed for feeling a man is not a woman? I dont agree with this and i think its dishonest tactic.. Not from you, but the people formulating these positions.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Do you think people have the right to choose which bathroom they use?

Generally speaking, yes.

That said, I think that people who abuse the privilege to harass people of the opposite gender should be punished. That seems like a no-brainer though.

 

[David.]

Generally speaking, yes.

That said, I think that people who abuse the privilege to harass people of the opposite gender should be punished. That seems like a no-brainer though.

I dont have the right to use a womans bathroom. Thats not a right.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I dont have the right to use a womans bathroom. Thats not a right.

You're a man who identifies as a man, so you shouldn't be using a women's bathroom any more than I should. But we're not talking about people like yourself or me.

There was a time that black people didn't have the right to use the same bathroom as white people. How does that look in hindsight?

 

[Wrathe]

A former man applying to be a computer programmer should be judged on the merit of his qualifications, and the fact that he used to be a man and now identifies as a woman shouldn't be a factor.

For Shizzy

 

[David.]

You're a man who identifies as a man, so you shouldn't be using a women's bathroom any more than I should. But we're not talking about people like yourself or me.

There was a time that black people didn't have the right to use the same bathroom as white people. How does that look in hindsight?

Segregation based on race is not having rooms in the vein of privacy and comfort based on biology, and if youre arguing it is, that should be consistent and you should be pushing for unisex bathrooms. Acknowledging biogical sex is not jim Crowe.

How you identify does not give you extra rights. That is not egalitarianism or equality. Thats ordained privilege based on an intangible. Thats nothing. Even if that belief is sincere: if you sincerely believe white people are better than hispanic people, youre not alotted extra rights, even if you sincerely believe it. If youre shaun king, youre not entitled to affirmative action benefits because you believe youre black and not white. You're not entitled to rights someone of your biology normally wouldnt have just because you disagree with your biology.

 

[Wrathe]

Oh, and general callout to the thread, nice job on keeping this civil. I appreciate the insight and sharing, honestly. Thank you!

 

[Wrathe]

There was a time that black people didn't have the right to use the same bathroom as white people. How does that look in hindsight?

The fallacy in that is it was never about the restrooms. The "other side" of that argument is totally OK w/ Men using Men's restrooms and Women using Women's restrooms, infact, they're fully pushing for just that. So upon that realization, you realize the conversation changes to something else. I get what you're trying to say though.

 

[Jack Brickman]

The fallacy in that isn't that it's never about the restrooms. The "other side" of that argument is totally OK w/ Men using Men's restrooms and Women using Women's restrooms, infact, they're fully pushing for just that. So upon that realization, you realize the conversation changes to something else. I get what you're trying to say though.

I'd say my point was less to compare the transgender rights struggle to the black rights struggle and more to simply point out that, as a country, we've been demonstrably wrong about these types of things in the past. We did it with blacks. We did it (and are still doing it) with gays. We're likely now doing it with transgender people.

As time moves forward, we inevitably realize that we were backwards assholes about certain things and treated entire groups of people like shit when we should have been treating them like humans.

 

[Wrathe]

I'd say my point was less to compare the transgender rights struggle to the black rights struggle and more to simply point out that, as a country, we've been demonstrably wrong about these types of things in the past. We did it with blacks. We did it (and are still doing it) with gays. We're likely now doing it with transgender people.

As time moves forward, we inevitably realize that we were backwards assholes about certain things and treated entire groups of people like shit when we should have been treating them like humans.

Sure, and that's fair self reflection. And I totally agree, we should learn from our history, though we're not bound by it. I think it's healthy to still challenge else we are destined to repeat our history, good and bad.

Thanks for the chat man.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

In reality, guys? The issues trans people face are a lot more than sports.

That's certainly true, but that doesn't mean that every issue should be determined by "whatever is best for trans people.". Non-transpeople have legitimate interests as well.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

A former man applying to be a computer programmer should be judged on the merit of his qualifications, and the fact that he used to be a man and now identifies as a woman shouldn't be a factor.

I agree, although I wouldn't make that legally enforceable.