The Trump Administration (just Trump) Thread

[MediumBaller]

Did you get 100 too?

I got 70

 

[gourimoko]

Right, iq gives you a limit.. I think with 130 there's isn't really anything you couldn't do should you find interest in it and be hard working, but thats the other part of it.

I'm not sure why you think this is true?

You can have a high iq and drive buses. You can have a low iq and drive buses. You can't have an iq and design rocketships.

That's not true at all. The theory and application behind rocketry is well known, you're not required to creatively construct new solutions since most issues are solved problems where trial and error, simulation, and risk are much higher factors with respect to time/cost than the individual scientists IQ. I see no reason at all that a rocket scientist couldn't have a sub-nominal IQ.

Anecdotes follow in spoiler tags:

Spoiler

Anecdotally, I happen to know a few people who are "rocket scientists" ... you wouldn't think these folks are particularly smart, and that's because, they aren't. They're just average people who decided to focus on this area of expertise. Same thing goes for lawyers or doctors.

Just as an example, again, anecdotally, my best friend is a scientist (molecular biologist dealing in neurological disorders), and I wouldn't say she is *unusually* smart (although I wouldn't say that to her)... but the reality of this is that she's just a normal girl with perhaps (?) slightly higher than average intelligence?? But her raw intelligence has nothing to do with her success in her field... Instead it has to do with her upbringing and her dedication to academics before ANYTHING else, including dating, social events, friends.... Being Asian, it goes without saying for many people.

I would guess that sat is more highly correlated with success than iq because it does inherently account for work ethic

A person with a high SAT score has achieved an understanding and an ability to recall learned information to solve problems. This person is well suited to achieve academic success, regardless of their IQ. A person with a high IQ may not be well suited for regimented learning or standard academic structure an thus fail to keep up with their peers. In fact, it stands to reason that the higher one's IQ, the more likely they would be to get bored with 16+ years of school; and may in fact beget laziness, procrastination, and over-confidence.

Simply put, there are many more psychological factors that are determinant to success than one's IQ. Like, for example, self-determination, self-motivation, education, and the ability/skill to apply oneself. Those qualities have next to nothing to do with raw intellectual ability.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm still not sure what the possible alternative is you're proposing.

Seriously? There are a shitload of things other than slavery and discrimination that can affect people's attitudes. We have had huge amount of legislation, government programs, education, "movements", etc., during that intervening 75 years, the latter of which were specifically intended to change the way people thought and behaved. Is it unreasonable to assume that they succeeded, at least in part, in changing the way people think and behave?

All of that cannot help but have some effect on the way people think about society, and their roles in it. So there is that entire universe of outside causes, other than the "legacy of slavery", that may be affecting the way people think and act in society today.

And, dare I ask, what are these "many respects" in which black people were doing better 75 years ago?

Well, there have been entire books written on that, but to give a taste, here's the author of some of them, who also happened to be the author of the punter piece I linked earlier. You don't have to agree with him as to where he assigns blame, but the facts he recounts (pulling from a much larger universe of such facts) still answer your question.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm-FqtAOSB8

This is the idea behind the whole movement of breaking down stereotypes in American culture. We should highlight successful minorities in fields where they're underrepresented, and we should strive for at least proportional representation of minorities in casting for TV shows, movies, etc. that portray doctors, scientists, etc. We can't undo racial stereotypes with a snap of our fingers, but that kind of thing would be an obvious first step.

None of that is going to do any good if you've got a cacophony of people selling an ideology of victimology, and the belief that success is virtually impossible (except for the Uncle Toms and tokens on TV you suggest) because of systemic racism in society. And you might even send the wrong message of rather than emulating the doctors on a TV drama, they'll be looking to emulate the actors. Which will perpetuate a stereotype of entertainment and athletics as the best avenues for black success.

As long as people are peddling the ideas of systemic discrimination and a deck stacked against black people, you are never going to convince young black people to put in the hard, often unexciting and tedious work necessary to prepare themselves for ordinary, productive careers.

I don't think this is actually true...I'd be shocked if more than a handful of black kids grow up, even to like age 5, not knowing that white people exist.

If I'd actually said "aren't aware that white people exist", your response might have some relevance.

 

[Nathan S]

Seriously? There are a shitload of things other than slavery and discrimination that can affect people's attitudes. We have had huge amount of legislation, government programs, education, "movements", etc., during that intervening 75 years, the latter of which were specifically intended to change the way people thought and behaved. Is it unreasonable to assume that they succeeded, at least in part, in changing the way people think and behave?

All of that cannot help but have some effect on the way people think about society, and their roles in it. So there is that entire universe of outside causes, other than the "legacy of slavery", that may be affecting the way people think and act in society today.

I'm willing to consider that the legislation, government programs, education, movements, etc. you're describing had the unintended effect of actually making systemic discrimination worse in some ways. E.g., if there are indeed teachers out there telling black students they shouldn't work hard because the deck is hopelessly stacked against them, then that's certainly going to make systemic discrimination worse.

Well, there have been entire books written on that, but to give a taste, here's the author of some of them, who also happened to be the author of the punter piece I linked earlier. You don't have to agree with him as to where he assigns blame, but the facts he recounts (pulling from a much larger universe of such facts) still answer your question.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm-FqtAOSB8

Can't watch video at the moment, will get to it later.

None of that is going to do any good if you've got a cacophony of people selling an ideology of victimology, and the belief that success is virtually impossible (except for the Uncle Toms and tokens on TV you suggest) because of systemic racism in society. And you might even send the wrong message of rather than emulating the doctors on a TV drama, they'll be looking to emulate the actors. Which will perpetuate a stereotype of entertainment and athletics as the best avenues for black success.

As long as people are peddling the ideas of systemic discrimination and a deck stacked against black people, you are never going to convince young black people to put in the hard, often unexciting and tedious work necessary to prepare themselves for ordinary, productive careers.

I just don't understand this at all. Actively denying that inequality exists is silly. People who got dealt a bad hand in life don't have to be told that they have a bad hand...they already know it. And then they either choose to give up because they got a bad hand, or to try hard anyway. Obviously we should encourage people to go the latter route as much as possible.

If I'd actually said "aren't aware that white people exist", your response might have some relevance.

What was your point then? Black people who grow up in very high majority black communities are less likely to be aware of discrimination? I don't see the reasoning behind that.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm willing to consider that the legislation, government programs, education, movements, etc. you're describing had the unintended effect of actually making systemic discrimination worse in some ways. E.g., if there are indeed teachers out there telling black students they shouldn't work hard because the deck is hopelessly stacked against them, then that's certainly going to make systemic discrimination worse.

No, they don't tell them not to work hard. They just tell them that the society is racist, stacked against them, and it's because of slavery and continuing discrimination. The "there's no use trying to succeed in white society" is simply the corollary that will often be drawn from that. Also, that's why things like "acting white" develop. And that's black people doing that to other black people.

I just don't understand this at all. Actively denying that inequality exists is silly. People who got dealt a bad hand in life don't have to be told that they have a bad hand...they already know it.

I agree. Then why do we constantly emphasize it to the point of making it a major issue around which people are expected to rally?

What was your point then? Black people who grow up in very high majority black communities are less likely to be aware of discrimination? I don't see the reasoning behind that.

If a young black child is not around young white children, it has no basis for seeing that there is any different treatment.

 

[Nathan S]

No, they don't tell them not to work hard. They just tell them that the society is racist, stacked against them, and it's because of slavery and continuing discrimination. The "there's no use trying to succeed in white society" is simply the corollary that will often be drawn from that. Also, that's why things like "acting white" develop. And that's black people doing that to other black people.



I agree. Then why do we constantly emphasize it to the point of making it a major issue around which people are expected to rally?

You have it all wrong...black people aren't telling black people that society is racist. Black people are telling white people that society is racist. And they keep emphasizing the point because (some) white people keep denying the point.

If a young black child is not around young white children, it has no basis for seeing that there is any different treatment.

That's not true at all.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

You have it all wrong...black people aren't telling black people that society is racist.

Uh, ok.

 

[caf]

Uh, ok.

Why waste your time? It's obvious his world views aren't built on facts, data, and logic... If I were you I'd stop wasting your breath.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Why waste your time? It's obvious his world views aren't built on facts, data, and logic... If I were you I'd stop wasting your breath.

Hey, give me a break! It was only four letters and two punctuation marks....

 

[gourimoko]

Why waste your time? It's obvious his world views aren't built on facts, data, and logic... If I were you I'd stop wasting your breath.

I think @Nathan S is saying that Black people perceive society as inherently and demonstrably racist; they aren't simply "telling" each other this is the case, inasmuch as they are informing opinions as to how to deal with actual racism that really does very much exist.

I totally agree with this point of view. I learned about racism the hard way... nobody had to tell me.

 

[gourimoko]

NAlso, that's why things like "acting white" develop. And that's black people doing that to other black people.

I've routinely been accused of "acting white" and even betraying my race for having a history of dating White women and marrying an Asian woman. The least effectual thing one Black person can say to another is "you're acting White;" especially on the West Coast. It's a non-event like no other and there are far far worse insults that one Black person can lob at another.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I think @Nathan S is saying that Black people perceive society as inherently and demonstrably racist; they aren't simply "telling" each other this is the case, inasmuch as they are informing opinions as to how to deal with actual racism that really does very much exist.

I totally agree with this point of view. I learned about racism the hard way... nobody had to tell me.

There is a difference between recognizing that racism exists, and dwelling on it/making it a central part of your life view.

 

[gourimoko]

There is a difference between recognizing that racism exists, and dwelling on it/making it a central part of your life view.

Anti-racism is definitely a central component to my worldview because racism was my first negative societal experience growing up; and that's true for many minorities.

So it's hard to imagine not dwelling on it when it's such a serious and impactful aspect of life as a minority in America.

 

[Kyrie4MVP0202]

I was jumped as a teenager for being white in a predominantly black part of town I moved to.

I too learned about racism the hard way.

 

[Kyrie4MVP0202]

Anti-racism is definitely a central component to my worldview because racism was my first negative societal experience growing up; and that's true for many minorities.

So it's hard to imagine not dwelling on it when it's such a serious and impactful aspect of life as a minority in America.

Which is ridiculous.

Bad shit happens to everybody. Much, much worse things have happened to me at an early age and I still dont use that as my worldview for everything.

That is a dangerous and counterproductive path to take.