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The Trump Administration (just Trump) Thread

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Another misstep.

View: https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/938851637623484416


I just came. This image of tactlessness in front of a room of 90+ year old Pearl Harbor vets got me off.

I believe it. I think you get an element of enjoyment out of hating him and sharing that hatred with other posters on here, regardless of serious or not serious Trump’s mistakes are.

Your enjoyment probably takes precedence over the PH veteran’s honor, no?
 
@Cassity14

I believe this is the quality, informative, intellectual discussion you were looking for on Friday.
We're all engaging in political discussion on a message board that has a thread titled "I just pooped a huge log."

Are you expecting something more enlightening?
 
That tweet said nothing about the strategic wisdom of attacking the U.S.. In terms of military professionalism, it was brilliant. It was a mass, coordinated, multi-continent surprise strike that not only crippled much of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, but also isolated and subsequently destroyed major Royal Navy assets. That's extremely difficult. The Japanese also demonstrated superior technology in terms of their carrier-borne aircraft and armaments.

That's one way to parse what he's saying; the other is that part of the military's job, particularly in Imperial Japan, was to make the correct tactical and strategic decisions for the success and survival of the Empire.

The surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was largely driven by a foolish and self-reverentially motivated belief that the United States would not have sufficient appetite for war. Japanese military leaders convinced themselves that the their victory at Tsushima (developed into the naval doctrine of Kantai Kessen) was indicative of their naval ability to defeat the United States in a long-term conflict -- even knowing they had limited resources by which to do so. This was military blunder, and one of the worst of the century....

Calling that brilliant is .. odd .. IMHO. Particularly when both the strategy and the presumed naval tactics necessary to implement a Kantai Kessen style grand battle weren't realistic given the state of submarine technology in the 1940s.

I'm no great military commander, but I've read a great deal on the topic of World War II, particularly as it relates to Japan and I must tell you that, even in Japan, this notion that the attack on Pearl Harbor was brilliant is not widely accepted. A more "brilliant" strategy would have been to isolate and compartmentalize the gains in the Asia-Pacific theater and try to negotiate with the British and Americans for a peace that allowed Japan to make permanent those gains. They could have conquered most of Asia, and held on to it.
 
I believe it. I think you get an element of enjoyment out of hating him and sharing that hatred with other posters on here, regardless of serious or not serious Trump’s mistakes are.
Sure, I enjoy being validated on a daily basis that he was/is in way over his head. He was never qualified to hold any office - especially the highest one.

Your enjoyment probably takes precedence over the PH veteran’s honor, no?
For sure, man. As the grandson of a decorated WWII vet and a Korean War vet, I have total disregard for our vets. The irony that the Republican party is trying to strip down the GI Bill and Work Opportunity program through tax reform has not escaped me.
 
Sure, I enjoy being validated on a daily basis that he was/is in way over his head. He was never qualified to hold any office - especially the highest one.


For sure, man. As the grandson of a decorated WWII vet and a Korean War vet, I have total disregard for our vets. The irony that the Republican party is trying to strip down the GI Bill and Work Opportunity program through tax reform has not escaped me.

So bottom line...

Virtue signaling?
 
That's one way to parse what he's saying; the other is that part of the military's job, particularly in Imperial Japan, was to make the correct tactical and strategic decisions for the success and survival of the Empire.

You keep trying to shove words in Gingrich's mouth that he did not say.

And no, it wasn't the job of the military to decide to go to war. The military people who planned the actual attacks were not the people who actually made the decision to go to war. As you know, Yamamoto -- head of the entire Japanese Navy -- opposed the war but was ordered to plan an attack. Gingrich is very obviously referring to the execution of the early-war attacks, specifically by the Imperial Navy, which was brilliantly carried out

The surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was largely driven by a foolish and self-reverentially motivated belief that the United States would not have sufficient appetite for war. Japanese military leaders convinced themselves that the their victory at Tsushima (developed into the naval doctrine of Kantai Kessen) was indicative of their naval ability to defeat the United States in a long-term conflict -- even knowing they had limited resources by which to do so. This was military blunder, and one of the worst of the century....

No, it was a geopolitical blunder. Given the order to attack the U.S., Yamamoto carried out that order brilliantly. You could make the exact same argument about the German attack on Russia in 1941. It was a geopolitical blunder of massive proportions. But the military professionalism demonstrated by the Wehrmacht in carrying out that order was brilliant.

I'm no great military commander, but I've read a great deal on the topic of World War II, particularly as it relates to Japan and I must tell you that, even in Japan, this notion that the attack on Pearl Harbor was brilliant is not widely accepted. A more "brilliant" strategy would have been to isolate and compartmentalize the gains in the Asia-Pacific theater and try to negotiate with the British and Americans for a peace that allowed Japan to make permanent those gains. They could have conquered most of Asia, and held on to it.

Completely true, yet completely irrelevant to Gingrich's point. The IJN was not given the choice to do that because they were ordered to attack the U.S. over Yamamoto's objections.
 
You keep trying to shove words in Gingrich's mouth that he did not say.

And no, it wasn't the job of the military to decide to go to war. The military people who planned the actual attacks were not the people who actually made the decision to go to war. As you know, Yamamoto -- head of the entire Japanese Navy -- opposed the war but was ordered to plan an attack. Gingrich is very obviously referring to the execution of the early-war attacks, specifically by the Imperial Navy, which was brilliantly carried out



No, it was a geopolitical blunder. Given the order to attack the U.S., Yamamoto carried out that order brilliantly. You could make the exact same argument about the German attack on Russia in 1941. It was a geopolitical blunder of massive proportions. But the military professionalism demonstrated by the Wehrmacht in carrying out that order was brilliant.



Completely true, yet completely irrelevant to Gingrich's point. The IJN was not given the choice to do that because they were ordered to attack the U.S. over Yamamoto's objections.

Ah, but the rub in all this is that the military controlled the civilian government and forced the war on the cabinet.
 
I believe it. I think you get an element of enjoyment out of hating him and sharing that hatred with other posters on here, regardless of serious or not serious Trump’s mistakes are.

Your enjoyment probably takes precedence over the PH veteran’s honor, no?

Just curious when you think that Trump has acted honorably towards vets? There are no shortage of blunders and nasty things said, but there are also policy decisions to cut VA programs. Luckily, they backed off this one once it was universally reviled.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781
 
Just curious when you think that Trump has acted honorably towards vets? There are no shortage of blunders and nasty things said, but there are also policy decisions to cut VA programs. Luckily, they backed off this one once it was universally reviled.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781

Oh, I didn’t say he has.

In fact, I thought I’ve maintained a pretty clear stance on here that I think he’s a buffoon and that reading and retweeting the majority of news stories about him is bad for your mental health.
 
You keep trying to shove words in Gingrich's mouth that he did not say.

I'm focusing on the term "brilliant" here, with respect to strategy in general.

And no, it wasn't the job of the military to decide to go to war. The military people who planned the actual attacks were not the people who actually made the decision to go to war. As you know, Yamamoto -- head of the entire Japanese Navy -- opposed the war but was ordered to plan an attack. Gingrich is very obviously referring to the execution of the early-war attacks, specifically by the Imperial Navy, which was brilliantly carried out

Wait, Q-Tip.. I would put to you the following:

1) Hideki Tojo was in the military, he was major general of the Imperial Army, de facto leader of the state, and "Prime Minister" of a totalitarian regime...
2) Yamamoto was not ordered to plan the attack, he demanded that he be allowed to plan the attack. Yes, he didn't think they would win a drawn out conflict, but he felt he was the best person to draw up plans to implement the strategy.
3) There wasn't a functional civilian government of any sort in Japan at this time. The State was effectively run by the military.
4) The Japanese were already aware that they were overextended, by the late 1930s, this was well known among Japanese leaders -- Tojo decided that Japan would extend itself further.

With all this being said, I'm not arguing about the execution of the act, I'm arguing about the act itself ... A brilliantly executed blunder is a blunder.. So using the term "brilliant" is a bit strange to me. The Japanese did not achieve their ends, the goals were misguided, and had they realized this sooner, they wouldn't have attack the United States.

No, it was a geopolitical blunder. Given the order to attack the U.S., Yamamoto carried out that order brilliantly. You could make the exact same argument about the German attack on Russia in 1941. It was a geopolitical blunder of massive proportions. But the military professionalism demonstrated by the Wehrmacht in carrying out that order was brilliant.

But here's where I take exception: the military doctrine of Kantai Kessen was flawed. The idea that they could draw out and defeat the United States in massive naval victory around the Islands of Japan was flawed. The misunderstanding of naval warfare at that time, along with the technological advancements which obsoleted the tactics used in the Russo-Japanese conflict all point to a military and strategic miscalculation.

The military strategy of that lead to Pearl Harbor was misguided. So I don't understand calling that brilliant.

If you want to say the execution of the act in itself, assuming it was in a vacuum, was well done or "brilliant" fine.. But that's leaving a lot on the table, including the why and what happens next.

Completely true, yet completely irrelevant to Gingrich's point. The IJN was not given the choice to do that because they were ordered to attack the U.S. over Yamamoto's objections.

I don't disagree with this!

I just disagree with the notion that it was brilliant. I think most Japanese strategists at the time knew it was a grave mistake. That's where the genesis of my disagreement comes from.. It wasn't simply in hindsight that it was a bad idea -- it was an enormously bad idea contemporaneously.

With that being said, I think many Japanese, if not most, would take exception to Gingrich's characterization. It's just an odd phrasing, I think.. One that calls into question the nature of the decision itself, particularly given the outcome.
 
Ah, but the rub in all this is that the military controlled the civilian government and forced the war on the cabinet.

That's precisely my point. And, that they were essentially drinking their own Kool-Aid with the belief that what they did to the Russians they could do to any Western power. It was an irrational belief.
 
Now it's being reported that there was follow-up to the Trump Tower meeting. Wow. Another shocker. Can't believe that Junior lied to us... again.
 
Now it's being reported that there was follow-up to the Trump Tower meeting. Wow. Another shocker. Can't believe that Junior lied to us... again.

Pretty amazing to have a follow up to a meeting that had nothing to do with what they wanted to talk about and was totally misrepresented. I heard everyone in that meeting was bored and didn't stick around because it was such a nothingburger.
 
Pretty amazing to have a follow up to a meeting that had nothing to do with what they wanted to talk about and was totally misrepresented. I heard everyone in that meeting was bored and didn't stick around because it was such a nothingburger.
Lmfao!

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