Theoretically Ante Zizic

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Unfortunately, the 2014-2015 verssion of Mozgov didn't get to play with Love and Kyrie(beyond gm 1) in the Finals. I do however recall that in the game he torched GS in early, our defense was even worse. They had already figured out then how to exploit him. By the time the 2016 Finals rolled around(2015-2016 season), Lue had already correctly identified that they would not be able to play him meaningful minutes. Was it his injuries taking its toll or just the matchup?

Yeah, he was dominating inside and yet something didn't quite work on defense. If I remember correctly he was also already banged up and was lumbering on the floor. Blatt took him out of the rotation altogether if I remember correctly.
Next thing you know he needs a cleanup in theo ff-season and you know the rest.

Ok, so given that opinion and the number of quality vet wings on this team, are you going to be understanding if/when Cedi does not receive consistent, game in game out rotational minutes in his rookie season?

Sure.. we are loaded on the wings and this year is time for Cedi to soak everything in and become a consistent 3pt shooter. Regardless of how good he is now, we are just crowded on the wings compared to the front court.

Totally agree. I expect to see some flashes this year, hopefully in the games he plays a larger role in due to 3-4 Cavs vets resting. If it's more than that in year one, I'll be ecstatic.

For year two, if the Cavs have not moved them in a trade for a star/high quality vet, I hope/expect to see both Cedi and Ante have more consistent roles and minutes. That type of path would be common in the NBA and consistent with the way many/most playoff organizations handle their none elite athlete/elite skilled rookies.

This trade can end up similar to the gasol brothers trade, only we got much better assets alongside with the unknown prospect. This trade could turn out ugly for the Celtics.

 

[cavsfever]

Yep.


Those same people will be unaware that for Pop:

-Danny Green played just 8 games in his first year with the Spurs
-Jonathan Simmons played for 2 seasons in the Spurs D-Leage team before Pop gave him a shot in 2015
-Kyle Anderson played in just 33 games in his rookie season in SAS
-DeJounte Murray played in 38 games his rookie year
-Patty Mills played just 16 games his first year with the Spurs(3rd in NBA
-Davis Bertans played 12 mpg as a 24 year old rookie last year, but had already played several years in professional Euro leagues
-Corey Joseph played just 29 games in 2011 as a Spurs rookie and then just 28 in his second year.

Yet there exists this myth that the modern era Spurs always give their rookie clearly defined roles and rotational minutes in year one, so that they're ready in years 2 or 3 to make legit contributions. They don't. The rookie years with Pop are almost exclusively D-League or Mop minutes for game time and practice learning from the vets.

over the past 10 years --

Kawhi Leonard averaged 24 MPG in 64 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Gary Neal averaged 21 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
DeJuan Blair averaged 18 MPG in 82 games for the Spurs in his rookie season.
George Hill averaged 16.5 MPG in 77 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Beno Udrih averaged 14.4 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Nando de Colo averaged 12.8 MPG in 72 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Tiago Splitter averaged 12.3 MPG in 60 games for the Spurs in his rookie season

Of course Kawhi is Kawhi, but all the others are basically just role players Pop found a use for.

You're right that the Spurs make heavy use of d-league and mop minutes in developing players, but it's completely inaccurate to say that rookies are automatically limited to that. The Spurs have zero hesitation in giving rotational minutes to rookies who Pop thinks can play a useful role in the lineup and can fit in.

The core of the Spurs lineup "system" isn't about rookies, it's about trying to use close to your entire roster during the regular season and limiting minutes at the top of the roster. The result is that your best players are rested and ready for the playoffs, your deep bench players can contribute situationally in the playoffs and you are free to go 10+ deep if necessary, and you understand everyone's skills well enough to figure out what players to keep for the future.

We are set up for a Spurs-esque season in that we will likely use close to our entire roster, we have so many proven vets who need/want playing time. Hopefully we will limit minutes wisely at the top of the roster too, given a lot of older and injury prone players. But sitting Zizic just because he's a rookie if he offers something other players can't and he is useful to limit excessive minutes at center for Love/TT would be a very un-Spurs thing to do.

Bottom line, Spurs have a proven player development system, if Lue/this organization had Pop's record in developing players and lineups then no one would ask questions. But given the track record it would be perfectly reasonable to express doubts if we see Zizic languishing at the end of the bench while KLove gets pounded day in day out by the Drummonds of the league.

 

[cavsfever]

This trade can end up similar to the gasol brothers trade, only we got much better assets alongside with the unknown prospect. This trade could turn out ugly for the Celtics.

it won't turn out ugly for the Celtics, Kyrie is a sure thing and only 25 years old. Unless he gets injured he's a perennial all-star / top 20 player / 2nd best player on a championship team type talent, you don't lose with that. But we can hope it turns out to be an even or better trade for us.

 

[catfish]

This thread seems to have been hijacked by the Lue wont play the rooks crowd. That has nothing to do with the fact that in my opinion Zizic was a steal as a "throw in" to the trade. Again he looked like a top 10 pick.

 

[Photon]

If he was on the GS he would be know as THE franchise center... He looks great.

 

[Photon]

You have listed wing players that in general are harder to intergrate in to a system because they are more prone to mistakes than big man. Other than that, the Spurs rotation were already set.. we have no player that does what Zizic does.

Zizic has an easy role, rebound the ball, screen, finish and defend. Watching him in Europe and now, makes it obvious to me that he is way beyond his years and can fill a role that we desperately need.

He knows how to get open after he sets a screen, watch his positioning on the floor, it's similar to how Vaarejao used to position himself for an easy pass from Lebron. I believe he can really thrive playing with Lebron.

That last part, dead on. He is just so so good in space. Either creating it or using it, knows how to let defense fly by, adjusts shots, dunks...
On defense he is looking to staying in correct spot.
If we get some nice minutes from both rookies (Zizic maybe right away), we can have two spots solved for the future. I also believe that the talent of Z and Cedi is much more likely to come trough, than when we were hoping the likes of Hickson, Eyenga and Felder would achieve anything. Top European talent IMO.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

He is certainly making the team, now my question will be whether or not the TT or Love option at center will change as a result of what Zizic might POSSIBLY reveal to the coaches. I think he can more than contribute but if he can be out there for 10-15 minutes a night and add size that will be huge.

One thing that caught my attention was how intelligent he seemed in his movements while screening and re-screening, like a slot receiver trying to get open and provide the right angles for a QB or in this case a ball handler. It's early but he looks like more than a throw in to me.

 

[Mavaliersfan]

Austin Carr said David Blatt compares him to Steven Adams. I think this is a good place to start and fair comparison for his motor, good bball IQ, and mobility for a 6'11 guy. I would be ecstatic if he could reach Adams' level. Although SA is still improving, Ante might have an even higher ceiling.

 

[MirORich]

over the past 10 years --

Kawhi Leonard averaged 24 MPG in 64 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Gary Neal averaged 21 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
DeJuan Blair averaged 18 MPG in 82 games for the Spurs in his rookie season.
George Hill averaged 16.5 MPG in 77 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Beno Udrih averaged 14.4 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Nando de Colo averaged 12.8 MPG in 72 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Tiago Splitter averaged 12.3 MPG in 60 games for the Spurs in his rookie season

Of course Kawhi is Kawhi, but all the others are basically just role players Pop found a use for.

You're right that the Spurs make heavy use of d-league and mop minutes in developing players, but it's completely inaccurate to say that rookies are automatically limited to that. The Spurs have zero hesitation in giving rotational minutes to rookies who Pop thinks can play a useful role in the lineup and can fit in.

The core of the Spurs lineup "system" isn't about rookies, it's about trying to use close to your entire roster during the regular season and limiting minutes at the top of the roster. The result is that your best players are rested and ready for the playoffs, your deep bench players can contribute situationally in the playoffs and you are free to go 10+ deep if necessary, and you understand everyone's skills well enough to figure out what players to keep for the future.

We are set up for a Spurs-esque season in that we will likely use close to our entire roster, we have so many proven vets who need/want playing time. Hopefully we will limit minutes wisely at the top of the roster too, given a lot of older and injury prone players. But sitting Zizic just because he's a rookie if he offers something other players can't and he is useful to limit excessive minutes at center for Love/TT would be a very un-Spurs thing to do.

Bottom line, Spurs have a proven player development system, if Lue/this organization had Pop's record in developing players and lineups then no one would ask questions. But given the track record it would be perfectly reasonable to express doubts if we see Zizic languishing at the end of the bench while KLove gets pounded day in day out by the Drummonds of the league.

You just made my point for me.

I did not say that the Spurs automatically limit their rookies.

It's the opposite, those that knock Lue always bring up the Spurs and say that they ALWAYS find minutes and rotational role for their rookies. What you and I have shown is it's more like 50/50

But to add to my point:

1. Neal and Splitter were 26 year old rookies. Nando de Colo was 25. Beno was 22. George Hill was 22 and had played 4 years in college.

Ante is 20 and Cedi 22.

2. I don't have the time to look now, but I'd guess that few of the Spurs teams in the years the guys you listed were as deep as this years Cavs team

But again my main point was not the the Spurs never give rookies a consistent role and rotational minutes, but that a lot of people act like they ALWAYS do.

And yes the Spurs have a great system. It's set up partly by having the SAME head coach in place for 21 years. Ty Lue has been head coach for 1.5 years. So you're going to knock Lue about his 1.5 year track record, which includes two Finals and one title(and don't use the talent excuse, Pops first title team had Duncan, the Admiral,& Sean Elliot going up against a barely .500 Knicks team in the Finals) vs. a guy with a 21 year track record?

How about we let Lue even develop a track record before knocking him for an imagined one?

As to the thing about minutes, the team is already set up to limit minutes by virtue of how deep it is with quality players before you even get to Zicic and Cedi. I'm not against them playing(and they definitely will on rest nights for vets) but it's not necessary to give them a consistent rotational role to have the type of Spurs like rested team you mentioned.

Last post I'll make in Ante's thread about it. Apologies for de-railing that. Anyone who reads the posts I've made in this post knows I'm excited about Ante, his future on the team, his talent, etc.

 

[kookoo]

Just because he's going to start the game doesn't mean he's going to finish it. Guy can come in for the first 4 minutes and then off the bench for a max of 15 minutes for the the rest of the game. Kind of force it into the post to open up the outside for a few minutes, then go small ball when the other team is a little more tired of running up and down the floor. He's also a slight stretch big with a focus in the post so you can have him and Love basically play screen and pop together, or even just allow Love to pull the other big away from the rim while forcing the other big to play Zizic at around 12-15 feet on the same side of the floor. That would give Rose an open lane to drive. I get going small, but I think we can also play stretch bigs, maybe get Zizic to start shooting 3s (like Frye did back in Phoenix). That would force other teams to play our game instead of us forcing the Golden State system into our identity.

Regardless if how it works out, I'm hoping Lue plays smart and has a lineup for every situation. We truly have lineup options for any occasion. If Wade or Rose actually learn how to shoot 3s, we could have an incredible 3/D lineup.

 

[Cavatt]

He is certainly making the team, now my question will be whether or not the TT or Love option at center will change as a result of what Zizic might POSSIBLY reveal to the coaches. I think he can more than contribute but if he can be out there for 10-15 minutes a night and add size that will be huge.

One thing that caught my attention was how intelligent he seemed in his movements while screening and re-screening, like a slot receiver trying to get open and provide the right angles for a QB or in this case a ball handler. It's early but he looks like more than a throw in to me.

Totally agree on his screening. Ben Wallace was the best at this, but I really liked Antes technique. He made quick decions with the ball as well and showed both a short jumper and good touch around the basket. He got involved in plays defensively as well.

He looks good and has plenty of athleticism to play in the NBA. For a 20 year old picked in the 20s he looks pretty damn good to me. I'm excited about his potential, and I see no reason why he can't get some minutes. I'd consider starting him against big centers and see how he does before bringing Love in while keeping tt coming off the bench

 

[Lee]

So until IT comes back, i am guessing Zizic is on the active roster with Cedi being the odd man out.

I think blowouts will be very important and i would like to see us put our deep bench in quicker to get Zizic some minutes. We are insanely deep, so our deep bench will include good players, but would love to see Zizic develop a bit this year, i was very impressed with him going up against Perkins, an end of the bench player at best, but still NBA level player.

 

[Lee]

Totally agree on his screening. Ben Wallace was the best at this, but I really liked Antes technique. He mad quick decions with the ball as well and showed both a short jumper and good touch around the basket. He got involved in plays defensively as well.

He looks good and has plenty of athleticism to play in the NBA. For a 30 year old picked in the 20s he looks pretty damn good to me. I'm excited about his potential, and I see no reason why he can't get some minutes. I'd consider starting him against big centers and see how he does before bringing Love in while keeping tt coming off the bench

I am assuming you mean 20 year old, and he was picked when he was 19, not unlike cedi.

Both Cedi and Zizc are similar as they were picked in previous drafts and would have been late lottery to mid first round picks if drafted today. Both performed well in Europe after being drafted.

I do really think that this "throw in" will prove to be a useful piece in 2 or 3 years.

 

[Cavatt]

I am assuming you mean 20 year old, and he was picked when he was 19, not unlike cedi.

Both Cedi and Zizc are similar as they were picked in previous drafts and would have been late lottery to mid first round picks if drafted today. Both performed well in Europe after being drafted.

I do really think that this "throw in" will prove to be a useful piece in 2 or 3 years.

Oops meant to say 20 not 30 lol. His game looks pretty mature and he has good body control for someone his age. I wouldn't say he is polished, but he does seem to be poised and that will be valuable on a deep team like this.

I don't realize he was a stash. Thanks for that. Will edit my typo ridden post.

 

[Lee]

Oops meant to say 20 not 30 lol. His game looks pretty mature and he has good body control for someone his age. I wouldn't say he is polished, but he does seem to be poised and that will be valuable on a deep team like this.

I don't realize he was a stash. Thanks for that. Will edit my typo ridden post.

Yes, picked 23rd in the 2016 draft, might have been as high as late lottery this draft.

The Kyrie trade if Kyrie didnt want traded was almost to good to pass up. The best asset is yet to be used, but Zizic, crowder, and IT alone is a huge haul.