TPE and accumulating draft picks

[Zone]

That's the point, take away assets that do little to nothing for them as far as competing now goes.

Chris Paul doesn't care about their 2013 or 2015 picks, he won't even be there. Collison is Chris Paul's back-up, he can be easily moved.

They add a big TPE of their own and a lot of financial flexibility to be able to make moves that actually let them compete now.

That's the reason I think it might be possible, because it doesn't hinder them from competing now, saves them a boatload of money, and opens up flexibility to give them a better chance at competing now.

Maybe we could do something like that for Peja Stojakovic? It'd get them about $15m away from the luxury tax this year, so they'd have the flexibility to use some or all of their MLE. They'd have the TPE to trade for some players, with the possibility of just using some of it now and keeping some of it for next offseason when they'd more than likely still be over the salary cap (especially if they bring back David West). They might see it as enough to part with the type of package you mentioned. I guess it would depend on whether they felt they could get 2 or more better players to make their team better in the near future than Peja and Collison.

Same could be said for the Okafor deal. Could NOH find players to make their team better in the near-term by dealing Okafor and Collison for them to rationalize giving up Collison and 2 future #1's?

Although in either scenario, does CP3 end up staying? If that happens, those picks obviously become far less enticing.

 

[Joel]

I've been waiting to post my own version of a mini-rebuild, and this is probably the right thread. I fully agree that our best bet is to utilize all of our assets to accumulate as many draft picks as possible.

Sources said Lakers are trying to trade Sasha Vujacic wfirst round pick to get his salary off books. They tried to do it for Delonte West

Personally, this would have been my preferred Delonte deal over the Sessions-Hollins deal. Of course, its entirely possible that the Lakers #1 pick could be the #30 overall pick, and Minnesota's #2 pick could be the overall #31 pick. Personally, though, I wonder if would have preferred having Vujacic's expiring contract as a vehicle for obtaining more picks down the line.

Maybe we could do something like that for Peja Stojakovic? It'd get them about $15m away from the luxury tax this year, so they'd have the flexibility to use some or all of their MLE.

My eyes are on Peja Stojakovic's contract too. His $14.256M salary fits almost perfectly into our $14.5M trade exception. My offer would be:

Cleveland receives: Peja Stojakovic, 1st round pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
New Orleans receives: the rights to Ejike Ugboaja (our 2006 2nd round pick)

A $14.256M rental of Stojakovic would be a high price to pay for a 1st-round pick, but then, New Orleans is out of luxury tax range and might not be willing to pay a premium. It's possible we could extract another pick out of them, but even if we couldn't, their 2011 first-round pick is likely to be in the 10-15 range.

If we can find a bad team in financial trouble who will give us an unprotected 1st round pick to take back an awful contract with our TPE, then I would do it in a second. It isn't going to happen though.

I'm not at all sure this is true. There are plenty of contracts in the NBA bad enough that a first-round pick would be a small price to pay. Even with minimal protection (such as top 3 protection), we could still land a high lottery pick. Supposedly, Philadelphia considered moving the #2 pick to a team willing to take on Elton Brand; you can believe that if Philadelphia had (say) the #8 pick, then would consider this seriously.

I would turn around and try to trade either...

Cleveland receives: Elton Brand, #1 pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
Philadelphia receives: Peja Stojakovic

...or...

Cleveland receives: Rip Hamilton, #1 pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
Detroit receives: Peja Stojakovic

We would take on salary, it's true, and we would be taking on enough salary that it might be reasonable to ask for an even higher price. But we would end up with three first-round picks in 2011. And even if we ended up with the 5th (ours), 7th (Philadelphia/Detroit), and 10th (New Orleans) picks, that could still land us a core of Enes Kanter, Jared Sullinger, and Brandon Knight. The complexion of our actual team for the next few years is irrelevant. Get a group of kids together, and let them grow together. That's how you rebuild.

This how I would use the trade exception - I would be willing to take on salary, but to accumulate as many draft picks as possible in the process.

 

[The Process God]

If Yao is able to play he will be playing for the Rockets. Honestly, after watching the before and after of Z's surgeries, I really don't want any part of Yao on this team.

It's a fallacy to say that one instance will determine the outcome of another instance. Besides, Z went on to become an all-star at one point, did he not?

 

[elcheato]

The market for the traded player exception will not open up until deadline time. We can't start spending it on garbage like the 28th pick and eating Vujacic's 5.4 million dollars.

Here's what you have to do, you have to wait until after December 15th and then the market really opens up. This summers' free agents and new players added to teams this summer officially can be dealt, meaning probably 50-100 new players go on the market instantly.

Plus, once you get closer to the deadline, you start to see under-performing teams bleeding money with awful contracts. When you can instantly save them from the luxury tax or instantly save them from a bad mistake, you can extract more in return.


The right thing to do with the TPE now is to be clear about your intentions and let teams know that you are willing to eat bad contracts for the right price. Position yourself to be the team that does that.

I think we have a potential godfather offer for New Orleans. We eat Okafor's contract dead-on, they pay with two future unprotected firsts(2013, 2015) and Darren Collison. But that's just pure opinion at the moment.

Teams don't trade unprotected firsts, hell even the Heat put protection on those firsts they gave us when they most likely won't be any good. Not to mention the Hornets know there is a strong possibility CP3 is leaving. Shedding Okafor would not warrant them giving up two unprotected firsts AND Collison.

 

[wuck]

Personally, this would have been my preferred Delonte deal over the Sessions-Hollins deal. Of course, its entirely possible that the Lakers #1 pick could be the #30 overall pick, and Minnesota's #2 pick could be the overall #31 pick. Personally, though, I wonder if would have preferred having Vujacic's expiring contract as a vehicle for obtaining more picks down the line.

I think it's possible to argue for either deal, and Chris Grant probably did.

The Cavs got the Wolves high 2nd-rounder (contract not guaranteed) and a player in Sessions who might fit into their plans. No comment on Hollins. They spent around 7M in expiring contracts. They are committed to paying Hollins for 2 years (with player option in 2nd year) and Sessions for 3 years -- Hollins and Sessions of course can be traded before their deals expire, perhaps in combination with something else. But it's likely that their salaries wouldn't lead to new draft picks as soon as Vujacic.

If the Cavs had traded West to the Lakers, the supposed deal was Vujacic (if that works straight up) and the Lakers low first-round pick (guaranteed contract). Vujacic would not be part of the long-term plans; the guy is lucky to have landed the contract he did. And the Cavs possibly could have turned his $5.5M expiring contract into something before the trade deadlne, but we've seen in past years how having an expiring contract doesn't necessarily mean you get the deal you want. It wouldn't be guaranteed.

Vujacic's expiring contract wouldn't help teams who want to get under the luxury threshold this year. Otherwise, the Lakers might have already found a taker themselves. Instead, Vujacic's contract would be most attractive for a team shopping a longterm bad contract of a player making around $5M-$6M/year. I'm sure they are out there, and it's possible that a desperate team will throw in a decent pick so that the Cavs absorb the salary, and get a pick. So what would the Cavs be left with in the Vujacic/West trade:

Lakers 1st round pick, possibly a decent pick from the 2nd team (would depend on the team and the ugliness of the contract), and an unwanted player with a bad contract for 3-4 years. They also wouldn't have Sessions/Hollins. Maybe the 2 picks are enough, but the bad contract could get in the way as the rebuild progresses.

I wonder how many bad contracts Chris Grant feels it's worth acquiring. Surely, he knows he'll have to absorb at least one or more bad contract for the TPE. In this case, it seems like the Cavs decided that Sessions was worth taking a chance on and also why that Minnesota pick was so key in the deal. At the least, it allows the Cavs to know they get a pick in the same neighborhood and also a potential player. With the Vujacic deal, they would have one guaranteed pick and may have been able to parlay it into another pick and a bad contract.

Seems like they have high hopes for giving Sessions a whirl.

 

[Jon]

If we take on someone we have no intention of keeping just to save another team from the luxury tax, it's best to do it at the trade deadline when the amount of money still owed that player will be a lot lower.

 

[czvo]

I've been waiting to post my own version of a mini-rebuild, and this is probably the right thread. I fully agree that our best bet is to utilize all of our assets to accumulate as many draft picks as possible.



Personally, this would have been my preferred Delonte deal over the Sessions-Hollins deal. Of course, its entirely possible that the Lakers #1 pick could be the #30 overall pick, and Minnesota's #2 pick could be the overall #31 pick. Personally, though, I wonder if would have preferred having Vujacic's expiring contract as a vehicle for obtaining more picks down the line.



My eyes are on Peja Stojakovic's contract too. His $14.256M salary fits almost perfectly into our $14.5M trade exception. My offer would be:

Cleveland receives: Peja Stojakovic, 1st round pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
New Orleans receives: the rights to Ejike Ugboaja (our 2006 2nd round pick)

A $14.256M rental of Stojakovic would be a high price to pay for a 1st-round pick, but then, New Orleans is out of luxury tax range and might not be willing to pay a premium. It's possible we could extract another pick out of them, but even if we couldn't, their 2011 first-round pick is likely to be in the 10-15 range.



I'm not at all sure this is true. There are plenty of contracts in the NBA bad enough that a first-round pick would be a small price to pay. Even with minimal protection (such as top 3 protection), we could still land a high lottery pick. Supposedly, Philadelphia considered moving the #2 pick to a team willing to take on Elton Brand; you can believe that if Philadelphia had (say) the #8 pick, then would consider this seriously.

I would turn around and try to trade either...

Cleveland receives: Elton Brand, #1 pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
Philadelphia receives: Peja Stojakovic

...or...

Cleveland receives: Rip Hamilton, #1 pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
Detroit receives: Peja Stojakovic

We would take on salary, it's true, and we would be taking on enough salary that it might be reasonable to ask for an even higher price. But we would end up with three first-round picks in 2011. And even if we ended up with the 5th (ours), 7th (Philadelphia/Detroit), and 10th (New Orleans) picks, that could still land us a core of Enes Kanter, Jared Sullinger, and Brandon Knight. The complexion of our actual team for the next few years is irrelevant. Get a group of kids together, and let them grow together. That's how you rebuild.

This how I would use the trade exception - I would be willing to take on salary, but to accumulate as many draft picks as possible in the process.

If I could thank this post twice, I would. Great post!

 

[KING T]

Great Post. Send this directly to Grant and Gilbert.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Teams don't trade unprotected firsts, hell even the Heat put protection on those firsts they gave us when they most likely won't be any good. Not to mention the Hornets know there is a strong possibility CP3 is leaving. Shedding Okafor would not warrant them giving up two unprotected firsts AND Collison.

Teams do it all the time, the trick is finding the most desperate team with the craziest owner. New Orleans and George Shinn could potentially be that perfect match.

To be honest, I think we have to de-value 2011 picks as trade assets, I think you run a risk of a historically bad draft class next year because of the lock-out, but a potentially dominant 2012 or 2013 class. Dominant in the mold of the 2003 draft, though I'm not sure if there's that "LeBron" type prospect out there right now.

 

[chiefwahoo]

FWIW, Larry Coon (NBA cap guru) answered a question about our TPE on Twitter today:

(I slammed all his tweets together so it's easier to read):

Prob with big trade ex. is that it's mainly useful just to bring in a big salary -- a salary another team wants to get rid of, at that...A team that needs to blow it up & rebuild (which the Cavs need to do) don't want to acquire salary that another teams wants to get rid of. Maybe use it to bring in couple smaller contracts, but I don't think the TE will fix all their problems. RT @azv321: what's the best move the Cavs can make with their TPE? package it with Jamison at deadline for picks, youth, and $$? about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck

http://twitter.com/LarryCoon

 

[Zone]

I think it's possible to argue for either deal, and Chris Grant probably did.

The Cavs got the Wolves high 2nd-rounder (contract not guaranteed) and a player in Sessions who might fit into their plans. No comment on Hollins. They spent around 7M in expiring contracts. They are committed to paying Hollins for 2 years (with player option in 2nd year) and Sessions for 3 years -- Hollins and Sessions of course can be traded before their deals expire, perhaps in combination with something else. But it's likely that their salaries wouldn't lead to new draft picks as soon as Vujacic.

If the Cavs had traded West to the Lakers, the supposed deal was Vujacic (if that works straight up) and the Lakers low first-round pick (guaranteed contract). Vujacic would not be part of the long-term plans; the guy is lucky to have landed the contract he did. And the Cavs possibly could have turned his $5.5M expiring contract into something before the trade deadlne, but we've seen in past years how having an expiring contract doesn't necessarily mean you get the deal you want. It wouldn't be guaranteed.

Vujacic's expiring contract wouldn't help teams who want to get under the luxury threshold this year. Otherwise, the Lakers might have already found a taker themselves. Instead, Vujacic's contract would be most attractive for a team shopping a longterm bad contract of a player making around $5M-$6M/year. I'm sure they are out there, and it's possible that a desperate team will throw in a decent pick so that the Cavs absorb the salary, and get a pick. So what would the Cavs be left with in the Vujacic/West trade:

Lakers 1st round pick, possibly a decent pick from the 2nd team (would depend on the team and the ugliness of the contract), and an unwanted player with a bad contract for 3-4 years. They also wouldn't have Sessions/Hollins. Maybe the 2 picks are enough, but the bad contract could get in the way as the rebuild progresses.

I wonder how many bad contracts Chris Grant feels it's worth acquiring. Surely, he knows he'll have to absorb at least one or more bad contract for the TPE. In this case, it seems like the Cavs decided that Sessions was worth taking a chance on and also why that Minnesota pick was so key in the deal. At the least, it allows the Cavs to know they get a pick in the same neighborhood and also a potential player. With the Vujacic deal, they would have one guaranteed pick and may have been able to parlay it into another pick and a bad contract.

I like the idea of parlaying the Vujacic contract into something else. If LAL were serious about dumping Vujacic's contract for nothing, I'd want more than just the #1, though.

First trade
CLE: Vujacic, LAL 2011 #1, NYK 2011 #2, MIA 2011 #2, LAL 2011 #2
LAL: TPE

2nd trade
CLE: Udrih, Casspi, SAC 2012 #1
SAC: Vujacic, maybe a couple of the #2's from the LAL deal

For using $5.4m of our TPE (leaving about $9m of the TPE still in tact), we'd have Casspi and 2 #1's (and any of the #2's we got from LAL that weren't traded) along with the bad contract of Udrih.

 

[*L-Train*]

My eyes are on Peja Stojakovic's contract too. His $14.256M salary fits almost perfectly into our $14.5M trade exception. My offer would be:

Cleveland receives: Peja Stojakovic, 1st round pick in 2011 (top 3 protected)
New Orleans receives: the rights to Ejike Ugboaja (our 2006 2nd round pick)

A $14.256M rental of Stojakovic would be a high price to pay for a 1st-round pick, but then, New Orleans is out of luxury tax range and might not be willing to pay a premium. It's possible we could extract another pick out of them, but even if we couldn't, their 2011 first-round pick is likely to be in the 10-15 range.

i like the idea of taking on a contract to get a high pick next year i'm just not sure if new orleans is the right team to do this deal with. in my opinion they are easily playoff team next year if chris paul comes back 100% so that pick wouldn't even be in the lottery and i don't think it's worth spending our entire TPE for a pick in the range from 16-25 (for example look at OKC they got the 18th pick from miami this year in exchange for a second round pick just by taking on Daequan Cook's salary of 2.1mio).

also for taking on a contract like peja i would ask for two first rounders, i know i'm a bit greedy here but i would be disappointed if we only get one first rounder out of a ~15mio TPE

 

[kmtabet]

I like IBWT idea about NOH and Okafor but I think an even better deal would be with the 76ers. They just drafted Turner plus they want to keep Iggy. So that means Thad Young is the odd man out and theres been reports from the sixers insider that young is the odd man out esp with him due up for a extension next year.

CLE GETS: Thad Young, Okafor

76ERS GET: TPE

We may need to throw in a future first or second because I dont think they will just salary dump him. But they also won't find a team thats willing to take Okafor's contract plus give thad an extension. I know it sucks giving up a pick even when it might be a first but Thad is a stud and all take him over a maybe anyday. Either way I'm sure well have protection on the pick.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

I like IBWT idea about NOH and Okafor but I think an even better deal would be with the 76ers. They just drafted Turner plus they want to keep Iggy. So that means Thad Young is the odd man out and theres been reports from the sixers insider that young is the odd man out esp with him due up for a extension next year.

CLE GETS: Thad Young, Okafor

76ERS GET: TPE

We may need to throw in a future first or second because I dont think they will just salary dump him. But they also won't find a team thats willing to take Okafor's contract plus give thad an extension. I know it sucks giving up a pick even when it might be a first but Thad is a stud and all take him over a maybe anyday. Either way I'm sure well have protection on the pick.

That's one of the worst ideas I've seen yet. You don't take on Okafor for the right to give Thaddeus Young a contract extension while also giving up a first round pick.

 

[Silky Smooth]

I was just thinking about breaking the TPE up and at the deadline trading those parts to teams that won't make the playoffs for their 1st round picks. Likely? The only problem is we would have to add a couple bad contracts but if we can add up the lotto picks, it could be worth our while.