Jimmy Butler Safari

TitleTown said:

This so-called accepted wisdom is horseshit.

There are many ways to compete for a title, and doing a "full rebuild" has no better a track record than any other.

I think a full rebuild is just as risky for a small market team as the treadmill approach. Both require a fair amount of luck to move into true contender status. I'd prefer to watch a near playoff team than watch a full rebuild for the next 5 years.

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This is a fair point. But I look at it like this. With the exception of the random 2004 Pistons every team that has won an NBA championship has one thing in common - they have one of the 50 best players of all time. And many have multiple them. This is quite simply the reality of a league where there are best of seven series and only five people on the court at one time. You can’t just get lucky with a mediocre but hot quarterback and win four games like the 2012 Ravens and call yourselves champions in basketball. Now there are obviously multiple ways to acquire such a player. So yea you are right in that the draft long term rebuild plan isn’t the only way to build a team.

Yet this much is clear to me. Neither Jimmy Butler nor Kevin Love is that caliber of a player. And at 30 years plus neither ever will be. So yes you can have a fun playoff team for a few years but I will bet any amount of money that you won’t win it all. And maybe some of you are content with that.

But if you want to win a championship again you have to acquire at least one of those all time players. You could get lucky in free agency I suppose but truly great players like that are going to be in high demand. And with all due respect Cleveland like most NBA cities doesn’t have the luxury of being in Los Angeles, which seems to attract one all time free agent per decade. And even such an opportunity arose you would need the cap space so building and sustaining a contender around Butler and Love goes opposite to that.

In my view your best chance to get that all time type of player is in the draft. You have been incredibly lucky in the draft in the past but getting a player of that caliber may take a long time. It may take dozens of picks to find that player again. Every pick you trade away is one less chance to make that franchise changing pick. Every year you field a competitive playoff team dimishes the chance that the picks you get can turn into that player.

Therefore I think getting Butler would just be diminshing and delaying the chances of your franchise fielding a true contender again. And you are right - it doesn’t necessarily have to be a Philly style tank and rebuild. But make no mistake - if you want to win a chip again you need that truly elite player and everything your franchise does that diminishes the chances of getting that player is a suboptimal decision.

cavsfever said:

Therefore I think getting Butler would just be diminshing and delaying the chances of your franchise fielding a true contender again. And you are right - it doesn’t necessarily have to be a Philly style tank and rebuild. But make no mistake - if you want to win a chip again you need that truly elite player and everything your franchise does that diminishes the chances of getting that player is a suboptimal decision.

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Again, this all assumes that THE DRAFT is how teams acquire "generational talent" type players. But, again, that is an awful crapshoot that fails far more often then it works out. AND, even if a team is lucky enough to draft a player like LBJ or Durant, that player will likely leave to go to a winning culture team. Why? Because tanking teams do not have winning cultures.

So, while you are correct that Butler and Love are not "generational talent" type players, having them BOTH on our team puts us in the running to eventually acquire a generational talent through trades, free agency, OR the draft.

Here's the problem with your logic: By going the traditional "tear it down and rebuild" route, you limit yourself to ONLY getting better through the draft for 4-6 years. However, if you develop players while winning or while trying to win, then you can still gain talent through the draft, BUT you also leave the door open to becoming contenders through free agency and trades.

I'd rather be the more like the Pacers and less like Sacramento. I'd rather be more like the Spurs and less like OKC.

Why?

Because drafting a generational talent does not mean that you'll get to keep that player. However, if that player CHOOSES to come to your team because of a WINNING CULTURE, then you are FAR more likely to sustain winning for longer periods of time.

The "tear it down and rebuild" strategy is horseshit. There's no reason we can't prioritize drafting and player development while ALSO pursuing opportunities to acquire good players when they're available.

TitleTown said:

By going the traditional "tear it down and rebuild" route

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Nobody's saying "tear it down", we're saying don't part with assets that have potential for stupid fucking trades that cap our ceiling and consign us to the treadmill...like Jimmy Butler.

We couldn't attract free agents while LeBron played 11 seasons here and were genuine contenders; players aren't going to be jumping at the chance to play with Love and Butler on a perennial 2nd round squad.

We already went the "scorched earth on our asset cupboard" when we had the GOAT and got a title out of it. Now it's time to dial back and see if we can take a Spurs/Warriors approach to building a team using what we have going forward.

If this is a full "tear it down and rebuild" why did Kevin Love get a huge contract? Heck, why is he still here at all? Why are they trying to get Nance's name on a long term contract?

TitleTown said:

Again, this all assumes that THE DRAFT is how teams acquire "generational talent" type players. But, again, that is an awful crapshoot that fails far more often then it works out. AND, even if a team is lucky enough to draft a player like LBJ or Durant, that player will likely leave to go to a winning culture team. Why? Because tanking teams do not have winning cultures.

So, while you are correct that Butler and Love are not "generational talent" type players, having them BOTH on our team puts us in the running to eventually acquire a generational talent through trades, free agency, OR the draft.

Here's the problem with your logic: By going the traditional "tear it down and rebuild" route, you limit yourself to ONLY getting better through the draft for 4-6 years. However, if you develop players while winning or while trying to win, then you can still gain talent through the draft, BUT you also leave the door open to becoming contenders through free agency and trades.

I'd rather be the more like the Pacers and less like Sacramento. I'd rather be more like the Spurs and less like OKC.

Why?

Because drafting a generational talent does not mean that you'll get to keep that player. However, if that player CHOOSES to come to your team because of a WINNING CULTURE, then you are FAR more likely to sustain winning for longer periods of time.

The "tear it down and rebuild" strategy is horseshit. There's no reason we can't prioritize drafting and player development while ALSO pursuing opportunities to acquire good players when they're available.

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My whole point is that if you are content being the Pacers, which it seems like you are, then by all means go get Butler. The Pacers are a team that has never had a real shot to win a title in recent memory and still have no real shot to win a title. Why? Because they flat out don’t have an all time type of talent on their roster. The ceiling of such a team is to be a perennial playoff team with no hopes of actually winning it all. And the Spurs are a terrible example because they acquired their foundational franchise piece in Tim Duncan after an egregious tank. Sure if your team has a guy like that already then by all means build a team that can both contend while trying to develop late first round and second round picks into secondary and tertiary stars to surround that player with. You guys don’t have that player though and you won’t even with Butler.

I’m also not sure I buy your premise that Love and Butler will help attract a truly great player to join the team. First of all there’s the salary cap issue when two guys are going to command max or near max deals to say nothing of the win now contracts Gilbert might end up giving out to chase contention. Secondly none of the guys who are potentially good enough to lead a Butler plus Love Cavs team to the promised land (Durant, Curry, LeBron, Harden, Kawhi, Davis) are realistic targets. As far as I’ve heard not one of them has ever expressed any interest in playing for the Cavs save LeBron who just left. The younger generation of stars who can get to that level eventually will likely not get there while Butler and Love are in their primes. And even if they did players like Tatum, Simmons, Mitchell, etc are unlikely to become free agents anytime in the near future.

So my thinking is still that the draft is the best place for the Cavs to acquire that generational talent. They dont have to tank ala the Sixers but they shouldn’t punt on young players and assets. Even if they fail to draft that bonafide star that every title hopeful needs, after a couple years of drafting they will have a core of young players with potential which would be far more valuable in the next trade for a disgruntled star than a squad of aging vets. So I would argue that not trading for Butler actually opens up more trades in the future not less.

I feel exactly the same way about the Knicks potentially acquiring Jimmy as well - we just don’t have that amazing player who could make us a contender while Jimmy is in his prime...and I don’t want to reduce our chances of getting such a player one day by losing young players, picks, and cap space to be at best a middling playoff team. Now if Durant to NYK was a certainty that would change things because Durant is that rare caliber of player where going all in is absolutely worth it. Kevin Love is not. And neither is Porzingis at this point.

JMoneyYourHoney said:

We already went the "scorched earth on our asset cupboard" when we had the GOAT and got a title out of it. Now it's time to dial back and see if we can take a Spurs/Warriors approach to building a team using what we have going forward.

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There's not a single person in this thread who wants a scorched earth pursuit of Butler. For me personally, I'm only interested in Butler if the price is right.

ACisKING said:

My whole point is that if you are content being the Pacers, which it seems like you are, then by all means go get Butler. The Pacers are a team that has never had a real shot to win a title in recent memory and still have no real shot to win a title. Why? Because they flat out don’t have an all time type of talent on their roster.

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OKC had an all-time talent on their roster...and he left. The Cavs had an all-time talent on the roster...and he left. Had LBJ not come back, we would have never won a championship. The Sacramento Kings have drafted multiple all-time talents...who left without bringing them a championship. The Pelicans are about to lose Anthony Davis before he ever helps them win a championship.

The tear it down and draft strategy is RETARDED for small market teams, and it's even dumber for big market teams.

At some point, people need to be honest about this horseshit accepted "wisdom" of tearing down and building through the draft. Does it work sometimes? Yes. Is it a "proven" strategy? Not by a longshot.

We didn't win a championship by drafting LeBron. We won a championship because LeBron came here as a free agent.

TitleTown said:

There's not a single person in this thread who wants a scorched earth pursuit of Butler. For me personally, I'm only interested in Butler if the price is right.

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That to me is the key. If we trade a lot to make this happen then it is dumb but if the asking price is say - JR Smith+ TT/George Hill, then why not ?

TitleTown said:

We didn't win a championship by drafting LeBron. We won a championship because LeBron came here as a free agent.

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Think about this; you're using a 1 in 1000, totally-unprecedented example of a superstar of LeBron's caliber going to a city like CLEVELAND in FA as the lynchpin for your argument. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN; the only way we can ever dream of getting another transcendent player to wear a Cavs jersey is by drafting him (unless LeBron returns for a third tour.) That's it. Jimmy fuckin' Butler certainly isn't luring that player here (nor does such a player even exist.)

brownindian said:

That to me is the key. If we trade a lot to make this happen then it is dumb but if the asking price is say - JR Smith+ TT/George Hill, then why not ?

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And why the fuck would Minnesota do that?! Thibodeau and half his former Bulls team may be there but GarPax didn't go with them.

Classic RCF trade, pawning our junk off on some peon organization and netting a borderline superstar in return. Bravo, please keep these coming.

JMoneyYourHoney said:

Think about this; you're using a 1 in 1000, totally-unprecedented example of a superstar of LeBron's caliber going to a city like CLEVELAND in FA as the lynchpin for your argument. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN; the only way we can ever dream of getting another transcendent player to wear a Cavs jersey is by drafting him (unless LeBron returns for a third tour.) That's it. Jimmy fuckin' Butler certainly isn't luring that player here (nor does such a player even exist.)


And why the fuck would Minnesota do that?! Thibodeau and half his former Bulls team may be there but GarPax didn't go with them.

Classic RCF trade, pawning our junk off on some peon organization and netting a borderline superstar in return. Bravo, please keep these coming.

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Oh, so you think "generational talents" happen more often than 1 in 1000?

You can't have it both ways.

If generational talents are so rare, then the draft approach to landing them is even dumber.

TitleTown said:

Oh, so you think "generational talents" happen more often than 1 in 1000?

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Go back and re-read what I wrote; I said that A SUPERSTAR OF LEBRON'S CALIBER COMING TO CLEVELAND IN FA IS 1 IN 1000.

If generational talents are so rare, then the draft approach to landing them is even dumber.

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If you think that another LeBron is walking through that door in FA and Jimmy Butler is the special player to make it happen, then I'm just going to let you die on that hill, in the fetus position, with your tongue protruding out of your head.

JMoneyYourHoney said:

Go back and re-read what I wrote; I said that A SUPERSTAR OF LEBRON'S CALIBER COMING TO CLEVELAND IN FA IS 1 IN 1000.


If you think that another LeBron is walking through that door in FA and Jimmy Butler is the special player to make it happen, then I'm just going to let you die on that hill, in the fetus position, with your tongue protruding out of your head.

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This has been fun.

The problem is that Golden State got it done that way and looks like they are there to stay for a while, so now a lot of folks think that is a great way to do.

JMoneyYourHoney said:

Think about this; you're using a 1 in 1000, totally-unprecedented example of a superstar of LeBron's caliber going to a city like CLEVELAND in FA as the lynchpin for your argument. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN; the only way we can ever dream of getting another transcendent player to wear a Cavs jersey is by drafting him (unless LeBron returns for a third tour.) That's it. Jimmy fuckin' Butler certainly isn't luring that player here (nor does such a player even exist.)


And why the fuck would Minnesota do that?! Thibodeau and half his former Bulls team may be there but GarPax didn't go with them.

Classic RCF trade, pawning our junk off on some peon organization and netting a borderline superstar in return. Bravo, please keep these coming.

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Jr Smith and George Hill are contributors and not scrubs like Isiah Thomas. Also, the expectation was to see what they expect not do it at all cost. Also, they are expiring and they hold value to a team that wants to salary dump to make space for a star that they lost. Plus, Butler's preferred teams that are not in a win now will be thinking the same that we are thinking and that is to do a complete rebuild. So they may not be keen either. We had to give Kyrie for not much and that was because that was the best offer we had - maybe the same case for Butler too. Who knows.

You are all, most likely, going to your grave never seeing another Cavs championship. This is simple reality. If you’re 18, maybe it’s 50/50. It took the GOAT being born in our backyard, us getting the number 1 pick, and the fact he was born in our backyard and cared about the opinion of thousands of people in NE Ohio to return, to get us one title.

Barring some perfect storm situation, that will only occur through the draft where we make a succession of great picks ala the Warriors, it isn’t happening. It took the Spurs being horrible. Sitting a healthy David Robinson to tank for Duncan, that created that whole dynasty. If a championship is the goal, tanking and the draft are the only choice, not simply the better of the two. We need to get lucky multiple times in a short time period. No hall of fame prime FA is ever signing here. I know this because I’ve watched none come close in almost 50 years of being a Cavs fan. I’d rather tank every year and hope to get lucky than be the Pacers every year. Some may not. Some many enjoy simply making the playoffs. That’s a matter of opinion. The optimal strategy for winnng a championship isn’t a matter of opinion for Cleveland. It’s self-evident. Tank.

SVC said:

No hall of fame prime FA is ever signing here. I know this because I’ve watched none come close in almost 50 years of being a Cavs fan.

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Really? No prime hall of fame free agents have ever signed here?

LeBron James just signed here as a free agent. Kevin Love just signed here TWICE as a free agent. Those are 2 in just the last 5 years.

But I guess they don't count because of the ridiculous confirmation bias you all have.

Why do you guys insist on believing ESPN's lies about Cleveland?