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We talkin’ Pistol Pete

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foucault87 said:
Harden wouldve run over that era and its not close. Milkman and accountants cannot defend the Beard
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Calvin Murphy would have beat the shit out of him like he did to Sidney Wicks.

Maurice Lucas, Norm Van Lier and Kermit Washington were milkmen or accountants?
 
2 For The Brew said:
Calvin Murphy would have beat the shit out of him like he did to Sidney Wicks.

Maurice Lucas, Norm Van Lier and Kermit Washington were milkmen or accountants?
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Well Mo Lucas is responsible for Luke Waltons name so...
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
You get two steps going forward….not backwards. Agree to disagree on Pete. As far as I’m concerned Harden hasn’t WON anything either. Makes him and Pete pretty equal. So his teams have win 50 games? Year and year out (except once) he and his team is bounced in the first or second round. Sounds like Pete’s teams to me!
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I'm pretty sure two steps its two steps. People have been taking back steps on post fades for decades
 
Harden games the game to draw cheap fouls by his own actions. Hes great at that. But take that away, and I think Pistol Pete is the better player.
 
SmudgeHog said:
Harden games the game to draw cheap fouls by his own actions. Hes great at that. But take that away, and I think Pistol Pete is the better player.
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Since becoming a starter, James Harden has only 2 seasons in which he averaged less assists than Pete did in the season he posted his whopping career high of 6.7.

They shoot the same percentage from the floor over their respective careers despite the massive chunk of FGA's that Harden shoots from the 3 point line.

When you get into advanced stats, however, the gap just widens further. James Harden is a better player and it's not particularly close.

Pete is right up there with Kobe and Iverson in my book when it comes to most overrated players in NBA history.
 
Cassity14 said:
Since becoming a starter, James Harden has only 2 seasons in which he averaged less assists than Pete did in the season he posted his whopping career high of 6.7.

They shoot the same percentage from the floor over their respective careers despite the massive chunk of FGA's that Harden shoots from the 3 point line.

When you get into advanced stats, however, the gap just widens further. James Harden is a better player and it's not particularly close.

Pete is right up there with Kobe and Iverson in my book when it comes to most overrated players in NBA history.
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Kobe has pretty good metrics tho
 
Cassity14 said:
Since becoming a starter, James Harden has only 2 seasons in which he averaged less assists than Pete did in the season he posted his whopping career high of 6.7.

They shoot the same percentage from the floor over their respective careers despite the massive chunk of FGA's that Harden shoots from the 3 point line.

When you get into advanced stats, however, the gap just widens further. James Harden is a better player and it's not particularly close.

Pete is right up there with Kobe and Iverson in my book when it comes to most overrated players in NBA history.
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I’m not sure if you’re old enough to have seen Pete play in person (I did)…..advanced stats aside Pete was the better passer, ball handler and defender. And I say this because I have had the benefit of seeing both of them play. Harden is the better scorer and that’s it! What you don’t take into consideration is that you can’t put James Harden’s 3 point FGP into play because Pete didn’t have that to his advantage. But think for one minute (that even without the line) he wasn’t shooting and taking shots from three land on a daily basis!
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
I’m not sure if you’re old enough to have seen Pete play in person (I did)…..advanced stats aside Pete was the better passer, ball handler and defender. And I say this because I have had the benefit of seeing both of them play. Harden is the better scorer and that’s it! What you don’t take into consideration is that you can’t put James Harden’s 3 point FGP into play because Pete didn’t have that to his advantage. But think for one minute (that even without the line) he wasn’t shooting and taking shots from three land on a daily basis!
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If the math says Harden is better, he is better. Seems pretty straightforward to me. And on the 3pt issue, even if you normalize for league average efficiency in those years, Harden blows Pete out of the water.
 
foucault87 said:
If the math says Harden is better, he is better. Seems pretty straightforward to me. And on the 3pt issue, even if you normalize for league average efficiency in those years, Harden blows Pete out of the water.
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How can the “math” show anything when the rules allow Harden to get 3 points for the exact same shot that Pete got two points for? Or when Harden gets gifted free throws and people aren’t allowed to defend him for what would have been offensive fouls or travels or no-calls back when Pete was playing?
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
I’m not sure if you’re old enough to have seen Pete play in person (I did)…..advanced stats aside Pete was the better passer, ball handler and defender. And I say this because I have had the benefit of seeing both of them play. Harden is the better scorer and that’s it! What you don’t take into consideration is that you can’t put James Harden’s 3 point FGP into play because Pete didn’t have that to his advantage. But think for one minute (that even without the line) he wasn’t shooting and taking shots from three land on a daily basis!
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Well, the 3 point line was added during the final year in his career, and before being traded to Boston, the guy took a whopping 17 shot attempts per game!

Less than 1 of those 17 was from 3 point land.

If Pete had been taking and making those shots as much as you say here, did his range just leave him entirely by the end? Had his game completely changed?

Even if you're willing to completely ignore how much worse the average NBA basketball player was in the 1970's compared to now (I'm not), statistics still favor James Harden.
 
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cavsfever said:
How can the “math” show anything when the rules allow Harden to get 3 points for the exact same shot that Pete got two points for? Or when Harden gets gifted free throws and people aren’t allowed to defend him for what would have been offensive fouls or travels or no-calls back when Pete was playing?
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Maravich was near the top of the league in free throw attempts his entire career! He also took an insane number of shots per game!

During his best statistical season in 1976-77, Pete was #3 in the entire NBA in free throw attempts. He was number 1 in field goal attempts, and the next highest guy took 400 less shots!
 
cavsfever said:
How can the “math” show anything when the rules allow Harden to get 3 points for the exact same shot that Pete got two points for? Or when Harden gets gifted free throws and people aren’t allowed to defend him for what would have been offensive fouls or travels or no-calls back when Pete was playing?
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This is why we use pace adjusted stats and not raw numbers. Oscar's triple double isnt so impressive when you realize he had ~ 20 extra possessions per game.

And see above on the 3pt line issue. You can normalize for league average. Not a penalty for Pete when everyone else in the league also did not have a 3pt line.

As for Harden getting a ton of FTs, I'm with you there. Its unwatchable, but its a feature of the game as it is today. You can however, again normalize for league average FT rate and Pete is quite good with that standardization.
 
Cassity14 said:
Well, the 3 point line was added during the final year in his career, and before being traded to Boston, the guy took a whopping 17 shot attempts per game!

Less than 1 of those 17 was from 3 point land.

If Pete had been taking and making those shots as much as you say here, did his range just leave him entirely by the end? Had his game completely changed?

Even if you're willing to completely ignore how much worse the average NBA basketball player was in the 1970's compared to now (I'm not), statistics still favor James Harden.
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One comment on the 3s. It was kind of by design that no one shot 3s at a half decent rate til the mid 90s. And Okoro would've been an elite shooter in that era too. The coaches of the time were incredibly confused and bad at adapting to spacing. Why take a 3 when we can get a wide open 15 foot shot .... that mentality stuck til the late 00s (or modern day if you are Boylan)
 
Cassity14 said:
Well, the 3 point line was added during the final year in his career, and before being traded to Boston, the guy took a whopping 17 shot attempts per game!

Less than 1 of those 17 was from 3 point land.

If Pete had been taking and making those shots as much as you say here, did his range just leave him entirely by the end? Had his game completely changed?

Even if you're willing to completely ignore how much worse the average NBA basketball player was in the 1970's compared to now (I'm not), statistics still favor James Harden.
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The biggest issue you’re ignoring is the complete game! All you are focused on is Harden’s scoring….why? Because that’s all he is! Again if you are old enough to have seen Pete play you’d know his all game around was much better than Harden’s! Better passer, ball handler and defender. As one poster put it……It’s not close!
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
The biggest issue you’re ignoring is the complete game! All you are focused on is Harden’s scoring….why? Because that’s all he is! Again if you are old enough to have seen Pete play you’d know his all game around was much better than Harden’s! Better passer, ball handler and defender. As one poster put it……It’s not close!
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I think he is talking about all in one metrics (BPM, PER, WS etc)
 
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