2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[dark2332]

Seriously? Okay, I can take a stab at it: because the Cavs were down to, what, 10 men a week ago, because a bunch of them are still clearly recovering, because there's an nba flu epidemic, because they are in the middle of long roadtrip, because they were on a back to back, because they got in at 5:15 a.m., because it's a veteran team that has a decent idea what they are doing.... and perhaps the coaches and the training staff have a reasonable idea about what their bodies and minds need

It's not just the Portland game, it was also Utah which was not under such circumstances.

It's actually been a trend that rears its ugly head from time to time.


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[dark2332]

Jon is going to have a field day.

Kyrie has been some kind of trash lately, and I believe part of it is because Delly isnt around to keep him fresh. Dude has dead legs more than usual.

We need an effective back up guard sooner rather later. Kay is getting chances, but it's not working.

Also Lue's rotation is complete ass. Enough with the 5 out, 5 in. LeBron has to start the 2nd to make Kay even remotely effective. That's what made Delly so effective last season. The 2nd unit was sometimes better than the 1st.

Bottom line, Kyrie needs a proven backup. Find us a 6 point 4 assist backup please.

Backup point guard is his problem?

I can agree that we need a backup point, but I can't let that point to Irvings play.

You can't say he has tired legs when he just got a week+ off for rest. Even the Cavs mentioned how they were being extra cautious with that hammy. That was more or less rest time.


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[dark2332]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, he's had awesome moments....

Seriously, you don't have to play traffic cop in here. Defending Kyrie at all costs.

I don't think people, or at least they shouldn't, are saying he's a bad player. We are saying he's a great player... a player so great that having such valleys to compare to his peaks should be getting ironed out by now.

The Cavs playing bad in general doesn't help, but as a leader on the team, he was playing the worst. We credited Kevin for learning to help the team when he's not having his best offensive game. Kyrie has not yet found this.... even though December showed improvement before this sudden cliff dive.

Citing his past triumphs to ward people from some criticisms, it's just poor logic.

Now, if people are saying "he's bad, trade him" then that fickle fan does need more championship pictures.


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[Jordan]

I didn't realized RCF had a "Gourimoko" thread. This is kind of awesome. What do y'all think about Gour's wife and kids?

But, in reality, there has been more discussion about Gour - unprompted I might add - in the past 24 hours than about Irving. That's probably because there are a select few on here who just want to use stats and not be challenged on their merits. Furthermore, they know for a fact that if they use those stats incorrectly, Gour will be the first one to challenge them, and it happens quite frequently in this thread.

With all of that said, yes, Kyrie was awful tonight. Yes, as the leader of this team he has to play better, especially when his shot isn't falling. Was he the worst player on the team? No, I'd say Shump, Felder, and RJ were all worse, but Kyrie was definitely the worst of the big three. Kyrie played lazy defense most of the night, and neither his shot nor the rest of the team's shots were falling, magnifying the above problem. And yes, it is games like this that make it so Kyrie is somewhat far from the MVP conversation right now.

One last thing because I've seen it on here. People complaining that he didn't pass last night are fooling themselves. He led the team in passes with 46 and was moving the ball around quite a bit. The dilemma was that our team could not hit the side of the barn. Hell, LeBron only had four assists. Nobody - including Love, Irving, Korver, Liggins, RJ, etc. - could make a shot last night.

It's a regular season game. Kyrie needs to play better than he did tonight and last night against Utah. Eat a snickers. Better? Better.

 

[Ohio]

Come online this morning to see there were 700 new posts on the site - should have known it was mostly because of this thread...

I just want to know why this guy gets defended to the gills by a few when no one else gets that privilege.

I don't get it. Everyone else on the team is open to criticism.

Rich, maybe you don't visit this thread enough (and I certainly wouldn't blame you), but no other player on this team gets even remotely the same amount of criticism here other than maybe Shumpert. As you saw yesterday, a certain crowd will literally sprint to this thread immediately after a single bad performance to tear Kyrie to shreds. This same crowd, for the most part, goes ghost after any good performance. This simply doesn't happen in other threads.

Allow me to give you a perfect example of the kind of bullshit I'm talking about...

As we all know by now, Kyrie played like shit last night. Kevin Love also played like shit. These two have both been shit since they came back from their time off (sickness in the case of Love, hamstring injury in the case of Kyrie). In this thread, we have the usual suspects tearing Kyrie apart. In the Love thread, here is what we get:

Like Kyrie coming back from his injury Love hasn't been very good since returning from illness.

Typical for third options to go through bad stretch of games

...and that's it. Nope, you're reading it right. Two posts of people being fucking apologists for Kevin Love. And that's it.

Additionally, as you can see, Love's shit ass play is excused because of his sickness. But last year when Kyrie came back from injury? Nope. Now when Kyrie comes back from injury? ...

If Kyrie is out there and playing without a minutes restriction I'm not going to steph curry him and blame it on injury when he's bad.

Nope.

...

People say they want the best for Kyrie and want him to succeed, but...that just doesn't seem to be the case. Before I thought it was just irrational hatred but now it's getting to the point of borderline trolling.

 

[Ohio]

Lol.. I see you putting in work man, you not slick!

You pushing that Rondo narrative something tough bro..

I haven't seen push like this since 50 Cent was working the corner

 

[gourimoko]

Seriously, you don't have to play traffic cop in here. Defending Kyrie at all costs.

But that's exactly what I'm not doing.. Notice I didn't quote your post? Did you read mine?

I don't think people, or at least they shouldn't, are saying he's a bad player. We are saying he's a great player... a player so great that having such valleys to compare to his peaks should be getting ironed out by now.

The Cavs playing bad in general doesn't help, but as a leader on the team, he was playing the worst. We credited Kevin for learning to help the team when he's not having his best offensive game. Kyrie has not yet found this.... even though December showed improvement before this sudden cliff dive.

And I think his season averages strongly speak against your point here.

Citing his past triumphs to ward people from some criticisms, it's just poor logic.

It's fairly fallacious to appeal to my motives without knowing what they are; but I'll say this, I'm not playing traffic cop: I read your previous post, disagreed with the point you were making, researched the first issue you brought up (passing) and found that Irving passes just as much as Steph Curry and has roughly equivalent stats this season and yet, the same criticism is not made of Curry -- who is considered "elite" and having figured it out.

Again I find that odd.

Now, if people are saying "he's bad, trade him" then that fickle fan does need more championship pictures.

Cool! And if people are bringing me up rather than talking about Kyrie then maybe they should focus on the topic of the thread rather than worrying about what I may or may not say -- even when I don't actually say anything.

 

[Cavatt]

I don't think he played very smart last night. Kyrie couldn't hit any shot either. I can't see that game and go "see this is what he is like" because this is so rare. He has been playing so well, it is super easy to write this off as a bad night.

Both Portland and Utah have been dying for this game. Give it to them. I think people still think the Cavs have a shot at home court in the finals. I don't think it is likely and I don't like how beat up our players will be if they go all out to get it. Save your best d for the playoffs, practice closing games and getting the bench experience until then.

 

[godfather]

Also, why are we automatically saying Kyrie will never be an MVP candidate? Just for the record, Steph Curry, Westbrook, and Harden weren't MVP candidates 4 years ago either. They were all considered all-star players.

They all entered their prime and took their game to another level. That's why no one should be upset, or disappointed Kyrie is not as good as those players, yet.

But, I don't see why Kyrie can't eventually take his game to another level too. And when he does, will he be MVP candidate? I don't see why not if he does.

 

[Tlyons]

That's bull shit and you know it.

Laughing emoji and "but seriously"

This constitutes a joke.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

There is a reason why Kyrie gets so much grief...It's because he gets so much unwarranted kudos. Strong comment that is sure to ruffle some Kyrie fans (I'm a Kyrie fan and I just ruffle my own), but hear me out. He is undoubtedly one of the five best scorers in this league in that he can score in many, many different ways. He is the best ball handler in this league, meaning well you know he handles the basketball the best . He has learned, MUCH to his credit to pass out of bad situations, which is great and what GREAT players, such as Kyrie, do. They learn. They evolve.

However, I think why some overreact and are kind of reactionary in regards to Kyrie is that there are two sides of the court. His defense is just not that good for a superstar. It's just not. I love the kid and as I said before, I love the fact that he seems to have turned the corner in regards to becoming a willing passer. That is huge in his personal development, but more importantly for the benefit of the team in general.

I also see a lot of "Kobying" going on in regards to judging Kyrie. His game has a definite aesthetic. It's pretty and it is. Kind of like Kobe's. He had a pretty game. Great footwork and all that. But compared to Lebron, he wasn't in the same class. The production said so. But you had Kobe fanboys screaming that he was better than James with no objective criteria for supporting it. You have to separate the subjective from the objective when analyzing players. Some people sure put the subjective, and fail to be honest about it, above or on par with the objective and that sabotages their arguments.

For me, he is a top 15 or 20 player in the NBA. His offense, now that he has become a much more willing passer, is just that good. But if we're being honest, his defense needs a lot of improvement for him to become the superstar we all know he can be. Just my .02.

 

[Cassity14]

I don't understand what's wrong with criticizing a player's play in a thread devoted to said player...

Kyrie's play is very up and down at times, and over the last 5 games or so, it's been at its low point for the season. What's wrong with dissecting that?

Throughout his career, Kyrie has mightily struggled to positively impact games in which he isn't scoring at a good clip. For a nice stretch last month, he looked like a guy who had improved in that area by continuously using his abilities to strategically get shots for other people.

Since then, he has regressed back to the mean for his career. He's struggling with his shooting lately, and thus, over the last 5 games or so, he's had a negative impact on the team's chances of winning.

I don't think season stats do anything to disprove the notion that Kyrie is an up and down player who impact the game almost exclusively through scoring the ball. In fact, I'd argue that because he's scoring the highest combination of volume/efficiency in his career, that's what has made his season so bright to this point.

Regardless, the main point of this post is to question why it's wrong to criticize a player after a string of poor performances, and why it's okay to get on posters for doing exactly that.

Don't like them doing it? Ignore them.

 

[TyGuy]

I don't understand what's wrong with criticizing a player's play in a thread devoted to said player...

Kyrie's play is very up and down at times, and over the last 5 games or so, it's been at its low point for the season. What's wrong with dissecting that?

Throughout his career, Kyrie has mightily struggled to positively impact games in which he isn't scoring at a good clip. For a nice stretch last month, he looked like a guy who had improved in that area by continuously using his abilities to strategically get shots for other people.

Since then, he has regressed back to the mean for his career. He's struggling with his shooting lately, and thus, over the last 5 games or so, he's had a negative impact on the team's chances of winning.

I don't think season stats do anything to disprove the notion that Kyrie is an up and down player who impact the game almost exclusively through scoring the ball. In fact, I'd argue that because he's scoring the highest combination of volume/efficiency in his career, that's what has made his season so bright to this point.

Regardless, the main point of this post is to question why it's wrong to criticize a player after a string of poor performances, and why it's okay to get on posters for doing exactly that.

Don't like them doing it? Ignore them.

We have a big group of people on this forum that get upset if this thread is anything but the Kyrie circle jerk thread. According to them there is no place for criticism of Kyrie. They got the other Kyrie thread shutdown, and our complaining that this thread is going downhill because of criticism. Just like how it's everybody else's fault other than Kyrie; it's the people that criticize Kyrie that are blamed for the supposed state of this thread and not them. It couldn't possibly be them, not at all.

 

[Ohio]

I'd like to see one example of someone assigning blame to everyone but Kyrie in the last couple years.

I'll wait.

Because there sure as hell are plenty of examples of people assigning all the blame to Kyrie.

 

[David.]

I'd like to see one example of someone assigning blame to everyone but Kyrie in the last couple years.

I'll wait.

Because there sure as hell are plenty of examples of people assigning all the blame to Kyrie.

I think hyperbolic posts are unhealthy for the forum.