2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[Rich]

Is this hot take central? Yeah, he needs to play better. But does this single game define Kyrie as a player now?

He wasn't good tonight. Neither was anyone. Dog Days of the regular season. There's going to be ugly night's. I think you forget it and move on.

I just want to know why this guy gets defended to the gills by a few when no one else gets that privilege.

Let's be real, Gouri protects this guy like he's his own son. Yet I've seen him on more than one occasion go after LeBron for lazy ass play in the middle of a game. Which is a good thing. LeBron shouldn't be immune to criticism when he's loafing. But man, if you go at Kyrie, he's all over your shit.

I don't get it. Everyone else on the team is open to criticism.

 

[Joe Henderson]

He's not a future MVP candidate.

He's a really talented, clutch scorer who gets cold sometimes. He's not gonna defend at a high level most of the time, and he's not gonna be an elite passer.

We're in year 6 now.

Does it even matter? Is he the right fit with the team? Can they win a title with him as the starting PG? Yes and yes. The rest doesn't mean much.
Whether he can be the centerpiece a championship team down the line when Lebron slows down is a different question, but probably not one that's possible to answer right now.

 

[Joe Henderson]

They didn't.

Lloyd just said they haven't practiced since December 28th tonight. Guessing the scheduled practice in PHX before going to Utah was cancelled once it became clear the Korver trade wasn't going to be finalized on time.

And I'm just saying...there's been a heightened level of sloppy play on offense as a team the last few weeks that we haven't seen since year 1 with this group...assists are down, turnovers are up, FG% is down...when I hear "we don't practice, we do defensive walkthroughs" from our coach multiple times over the course of a few weeks and then see those recent results offensively, that's the first thing that popped into my head.

The hope is, following the trade

They didn't.

Lloyd just said they haven't practiced since December 28th tonight. Guessing the scheduled practice in PHX before going to Utah was cancelled once it became clear the Korver trade wasn't going to be finalized on time.

And I'm just saying...there's been a heightened level of sloppy play on offense as a team the last few weeks that we haven't seen since year 1 with this group...assists are down, turnovers are up, FG% is down...when I hear "we don't practice, we do defensive walkthroughs" from our coach multiple times over the course of a few weeks and then see those recent results offensively, that's the first thing that popped into my head.

The hope is, following the trade for Korver, is that the next few practices will be heavy on the offensive side to get him incorporated. That should benefit the entire team as much as it will Korver.

I missed that bit from JL, thanks for outpointing

 

[Rich]

Does it even matter? Is he the right fit with the team? Can they win a title with him as the starting PG? Yes and yes. The rest doesn't mean much.
Whether he can be the centerpiece a championship team down the line when Lebron slows down is a different question, but probably not one that's possible to answer right now.

Eh, it matters if you're really into these Top 5 PG lists.

I've been at peace with Irving for years. He's a 2nd fiddle and, lucky for him, LeBron came home and put him in his proper spot. I don't think he's going to evolve at any point into a numero uno guy, and I'm cool with it.

 

[Taiter]

He's not a future MVP candidate.

He's a really talented, clutch scorer who gets cold sometimes. He's not gonna defend at a high level most of the time, and he's not gonna be an elite passer.

We're in year 6 now.

I tend to lean in that direction, but hopes have been raised in a couple of weeks stretch where his passing improvement really stood out. He showed himself to be not only a more willing passer, but a good and talented passer. He's grown as a player this year. I would've liked to have seen this ball distribution growth spurt start 2 years ago (when he finally had some talent around him) instead of this year; not sure what took so long. He's also shown that he can be a competent and even good defender in the playoffs as well, but he's been lacking in the regular season. I don't know if it's a lack of endurance (desire to save himself for later) or lack of desire, but it's just not there nearly enough. This lack of impact on the areas of the game other than scoring are the basis of criticism, at least the deserved criticism.

 

[godfather]

I just want to know why this guy gets defended to the gills by a few when no one else gets that privilege.

Let's be real, Gouri protects this guy like he's his own son. Yet I've seen him on more than one occasion go after LeBron for lazy ass play in the middle of a game. Which is a good thing. LeBron shouldn't be immune to criticism when he's loafing. But man, if you go at Kyrie, he's all over your shit.

I don't get it. Everyone else on the team is open to criticism.

I'm not gour, so I can't answer for him. But does he like Kyrie a lot? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

I do too. I want to see him get better for the record. I've been trying to be not as bias on my stance with him lately, and seeing the other flip of the coin.

But there's nothing wrong at appreciating what a talent he is. Without Kyrie, and as great as LeBron is, and he is great, we don't have a championship.

He deserves some love for that at least. I think.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I just want to know why this guy gets defended to the gills by a few when no one else gets that privilege.

Let's be real, Gouri protects this guy like he's his own son. Yet I've seen him on more than one occasion go after LeBron for lazy ass play in the middle of a game. Which is a good thing. LeBron shouldn't be immune to criticism when he's loafing. But man, if you go at Kyrie, he's all over your shit.

I don't get it. Everyone else on the team is open to criticism.

I don't think gouri has problems with criticism about Kyrie. I just think he takes issue on the purely analytical nature they all seem to stem from, with arguments that make it seem like people criticizing him don't watch him and instead plug him into a calculator to try to show him as a player.

Now that certainly isn't the case for Ty, who gouri seems to have issues with on his methods...but I think that's his main problem with most of the criticisms that have been made on Kyrie to this point.

I'm sure if someone just said "Kyrie isn't a good defender" to him he'd agree with that. But if you say "he hasn't improved because his TS% is the same, or his PPP has barely raised since his rookie year" or some of the other analytical numbers people have tried to use to criticize him, he'll take offense. At least that's the read I get from his defense of Kyrie in here.

As for the LeBron stuff...1, shouldn't LeBron be held to a higher standard than Kyrie? And 2, if its in a gamethread, I've seen some terrible, terrible things in gamethreads, which is why I don't take too much stock in what is said in them.

 

[Pioneer10]

I don't think gouri has problems with criticism about Kyrie. I just think he takes issue on the purely analytical nature they all seem to stem from, with arguments that make it seem like people criticizing him don't watch him and instead plug him into a calculator to try to show him as a player.

Now that certainly isn't the case for Ty, who gouri seems to have issues with on his methods...but I think that's his main problem with most of the criticisms that have been made on Kyrie to this point.

I'm sure if someone just said "Kyrie isn't a good defender" to him he'd agree with that. But if you say "he hasn't improved because his TS% is the same, or his PPP has barely raised since his rookie year" or some of the other analytical numbers people have tried to use to criticize him, he'll take offense. At least that's the read I get from his defense of Kyrie in here.

As for the LeBron stuff...1, shouldn't LeBron be held to a higher standard than Kyrie? And 2, if its in a gamethread, I've seen some terrible, terrible things in gamethreads, which is why I don't take too much stock in what is said in them.

In the regular season? Probably not.

 

[CHIMOCHIS]

Typical for 2nd fiddles to go through bad stretch of games

Nothing to see here

/yawn

 

[BimboColesHair]

In the regular season? Probably not.

Just me, but I think the leader of the team should be held to a higher standard year round...and LeBron himself always talks about doing so, even in the regular season.

 

[gourimoko]

Let's be real, Gouri protects this guy like he's his own son. Yet I've seen him on more than one occasion go after LeBron for lazy ass play in the middle of a game. Which is a good thing. LeBron shouldn't be immune to criticism when he's loafing. But man, if you go at Kyrie, he's all over your shit

Not sure why I'm coming up here, but okay...

Yes, I defend Kyrie Irving because he's a Cavalier, we drafted him, and I've watched him come up... I sat in the Philippines and Japan for a year watching nothing but the NBA, quite a few teams , and almost every game.. It was the only English programming I had available to me..

And in that time, the most exciting player to watch for much of that time was Kyrie Irving.

I'd venture to guess that Kyrie will be MVP of the league someday, just as Steph and likely Harden will be this year.

But getting to my Kyrie support, well, part of the defense is because I think people genuinely misunderstand the stats they use to discuss Irving. As a mathematician, that bothers the hell out of me... Not because people are trying to use math to make an argument -- I think that's great.. But because people are not willing to check their work when flaws are pointed out, or are engaging in confirmation bias like @Jscc said, or recency bias as these past few pages demonstrate...

I'll go through numbers, analytics, play-by-plays... and somehow that's a problem?

I'm not shitting on people personally, attacking anyone.. I'm not trolling... I'm saying, if you've got an argument, let's have at it.

Now do I defend the indefensible? No. Kyrie wasn't any good today.. But, let's be real, there's posters here who are chomping at the bit to run in this thread and take a shit all over it.

Those are the folks I'll be calling out in when Kyrie regresses towards the mean, which I think is closer to his last month's performance than it was to tonight's game...

Criticism is fine, yeah, but bemoaning and whining individual players for no reason? That amounts to nothing... It's not rational, it's not productive; it's not analytical, and it's not useful.. What is to be had of reading someone come on a Cavaliers message board in the Kyrie Irving thread to whine about Kyrie Irving being overrated in various passive aggressive ways?

What the fuck is that?

IF we're going to have a rational conversation, then let's have at it.... Otherwise, I think the overriding narrative of the thread should stand which is REAL CAVS FANS - KYRIE IRVING.

p.s.
I haven't criticized LeBron in months, probably even a year. I really cannot remember the last time it's been.... I've made remarks suggesting LeBron might have caused us to lose a game if another player is being blamed for it, but I'm not openly criticizing him, I'm pointing out where the causative factor lies.

 

[gourimoko]

I don't think gouri has problems with criticism about Kyrie. I just think he takes issue on the purely analytical nature they all seem to stem from, with arguments that make it seem like people criticizing him don't watch him and instead plug him into a calculator to try to show him as a player.

Now that certainly isn't the case for Ty, who gouri seems to have issues with on his methods...but I think that's his main problem with most of the criticisms that have been made on Kyrie to this point.

I'm sure if someone just said "Kyrie isn't a good defender" to him he'd agree with that. But if you say "he hasn't improved because his TS% is the same, or his PPP has barely raised since his rookie year" or some of the other analytical numbers people have tried to use to criticize him, he'll take offense. At least that's the read I get from his defense of Kyrie in here.

As for the LeBron stuff...1, shouldn't LeBron be held to a higher standard than Kyrie? And 2, if its in a gamethread, I've seen some terrible, terrible things in gamethreads, which is why I don't take too much stock in what is said in them.

I agree with all of this... and FWIW, I like @TyGuy .. but he rustles my fucking jimmies with his talk of Kyrie Irving...

 

[gourimoko]

I'm not gour, so I can't answer for him. But does he like Kyrie a lot? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

 

[czvo]

If Kyrie continues to be the single most clutch player in the league in games that matter, who gives a shit what people say about him in the regular season?

 

[pinoycavsfan]

Kyrie has been playing bad since the extended rest/injury.. He'll find his form eventually and not a bit concerned..

His defense has been bad all year though and not having a defensive rim protectingBe loved because you enjoy and improve what is 'you' big has affected the cavs..