2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[Just Checkin]

Off topic but I enjoyed Kyrie's stories in RJ and Channing's Podcast. Nice perspective on what we were watching those years after LeBron.

 

[Jscc]

Off topic but I enjoyed Kyrie's stories in RJ and Channing's Podcast. Nice perspective on what we were watching those years after LeBron.

RJ said Kyrie told RJ to stop playing like an undrafted rookie during that Utah game.

 

[Rich]

Someone already mentioned Harden's playoff struggles in his career, but felt like the 2012 Finals should be pointed out in particular because that performance was honestly tragic. He was a 6th man yet he managed to sabotage the Thunder in that series.

He was 3rd year player playing against some veteran killers hungry for a ring.

 

[Ohio]

He was 3rd year player playing against some veteran killers hungry for a ring.

And Kyrie was 2 years older in the 2016 Finals playing against a team trying to stake a claim as the greatest team of all-time. And he was the #2 option.

For the record, I certainly believe Harden is a better basketball player than Kyrie right now.

 

[gourimoko]

And Kyrie was 2 years older in the 2016 Finals playing against a team trying to stake a claim as the greatest team of all-time. And he was the #2 option.

For the record, I certainly believe Harden is a better basketball player than Kyrie right now.

Agreed on all counts... And I'd still take Kyrie over Harden, on this team, going into the playoffs based on their performances in the playoffs to date.

 

[Rich]

Not totally. But significantly? Hell yeah. And that's enough for me to not like a stat that skews heavily in favor of players who can get more trips to the line than others, for whatever reason.

And for some people it is a skill. But its a skill in tricking the refs, like in the case of Harden. Dude grabs defenders arms with his elbows while he gathers and gets FTs as a reward for that because refs can only see in real time...that's not basketball, and its why he isn't as efficient of a scorer in the playoffs as he is in the regular season, when shit like that isn't whistled as often.

In a lot of cases its also a size thing. LeBron gets less FTs than he should because of how big he is. Thomas gets more than he should because of how little he is.

In a lot of cases its an ability to finish thing. Refs have a penchant for blowing their whistles only after a shot attempt is missed, and will swallow it when it goes in. That hurts players who are excellent finishers around the rim, as they should be given the FT regardless of if it goes in or not.

In a lot of cases its a reputation thing. Why someone like Dion who yells "AND ONEEEE" every time he drives tends to see whistles swallowed on his drives.

Totally out of their control? No. But to act like refs are totally unbiased people who officiate all players equally is a joke, and you know it.

No one said refs aren't biased. But there are a lot of refs and seemingly they all blow the whistle for Harden. If I'm choosing between two guys who are fairly even across the board, but one guy draws way more FTs than the other, I'm taking him. I think its kind of a joke to want to discount FTs. They are some of the easiest points in the game and they have the bonus of being preceded by a foul being called on the opposing team, leading to individual foul trouble and bonus situations. But Kyrie isn't Harden. He's a tier or two below and I don't think many here would argue that, so I dunno what we are trying to prove currently.

 

[Rich]

And Kyrie was 2 years older in the 2016 Finals playing against a team trying to stake a claim as the greatest team of all-time. And he was the #2 option.

For the record, I certainly believe Harden is a better basketball player than Kyrie right now.

2 years older and 2 more years of league experience is massive in the NBA. What debate are we having right now? Is there someone here who doesn't believe Harden is better? I'm confused.

 

[gourimoko]

I think its kind of a joke to want to discount FTs.

The question is how do FTs translate across teams with various rosters; no one is discounting the value of free throws.

 

[Pioneer10]

My God just thinking of Lebron running screens for Harden. That Delly/Lebron PnR was just ridiculous last year and Delly has maybe a tenth of the skill has Harden has.

Anyway pretty useless discussion as we aren't getting a Harden/Irving swap. I hope Kyrie gets the passing back up again but I do think one of improvement for him is the ability to get to the line. I know this has been discussed but it really is an issue for him and the Cavs: he doesn't get to the line nearly enough for a guy with his ability to penetrate.

 

[BimboColesHair]

No one said refs aren't biased. But there are a lot of refs and seemingly they all blow the whistle for Harden. If I'm choosing between two guys who are fairly even across the board, but one guy draws way more FTs than the other, I'm taking him. I think its kind of a joke to want to discount FTs. They are some of the easiest points in the game and they have the bonus of being preceded by a foul being called on the opposing team, leading to individual foul trouble and bonus situations. But Kyrie isn't Harden. He's a tier or two below and I don't think many here would argue that, so I dunno what we are trying to prove currently.

Literally no one is discounting FTs in here.

Just stats that heavily skew towards those who shoot more FTs.

I'm just taking offense to using TS% way too much when comparing players and their "efficiency".

 

[TyGuy]

2 years older and 2 more years of league experience is massive in the NBA. What debate are we having right now? Is there someone here who doesn't believe Harden is better? I'm confused.

There are three people here minimum that said Kyrie was better than Harden.

 

[godfather]

Too tired to read through this thread. I felt there would be a lot of angst regardless over Kyrie if we lost to a team like GS.

Let's just all take a step back, and come back later. A few bad games from Kyrie; no debate about it. But why even go into so much over it?

And Ty, why does it have to be pointed out over and over when he or anyone plays bad? Or Love, or anyone for that matter? Everyone understands that.

It's like okay, we get it. No one is disagreeing, but what does it mean? Not much. It's a long season, it's going to happen. Not the last time Kyrie will play bad for the record.

 

[BimboColesHair]

There are three people here minimum that said Kyrie was better than Harden.

I haven't seen a single poster who is engaged in the argument with you say such thing.

I've seen people say they'd take Kyrie over Harden, or Kyrie is better than Harden on this team, which is a completely different argument in itself...but I have yet to see someone flat out say Kyrie is better than Harden.

If I'm missing someone actually saying point blank "Kyrie is better than Harden right now", show me it.

 

[TyGuy]

I haven't seen a single poster who is engaged in the argument with you say such thing.

I've seen people say they'd take Kyrie over Harden on this team, which is a completely different argument in itself...but I have yet to see someone flat out say Kyrie is better than Harden.

That's because this thread has been mucked up with posts like "you need to plot data points." I quoted three different people that said they would take Kyrie over harden.

 

[BimboColesHair]

That's because this thread has been mucked up with posts like "you need to plot data points." I quoted three different people that said they would take Kyrie over harden.

Quotes from the posts you quoted which supposedly say "Kyrie is better than Harden":

"I reluctantly put Harden ahead of Kyrie to be as non-bias as possible. But I don't think I really feel that way." - @godfather

"Agreed.

I acknowledge what Harden's raw production is, and he's ahead of Irving on my list of players; surely." - @gourimoko

"I agree with much of what you are saying about Kyrie, especially when compared to James Harden.

I, too, would rather have Kyrie on my team than James Harden." - @thedarkness2332

So again...point me to where someone flat out said Kyrie is better than Harden, and not that Kyrie is better on this team than Harden.