2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[Ohio]

Jeff Teague I mean kyrie Irving has done great job with his hawks I mean Celtics in this winning streak

They really do remind you of the 2014-2015 Hawks..

 

[cavsfever]

Cavs made the obvious deal. It was the best deal. And they had to make it.

This post seems like just excuse-making for the front office to me. I don't see how one can argue this when we didn't use all the mechanisms we had available to pressure Kyrie (showing we were willing to force him to hold out or play for us), something that would have changed the equation on all the back-channeling you claim. And despite your claims, none of us have a crystal ball to tell what other teams might have offered over time. Finally, there is a longer-term screwup here that we may never know the answer to. Why did we have to rush one of the most important trades in Cavs history over the last few weeks of the off-season, after guys like Paul George and Butler had moved? When did the FO know that Kyrie was dissatisfied and wanted to go? Why didn't they have a better sense earlier with more time to work this out?

The full evaluation of the Celtics trade will have to wait until probably next year, after we see what ends up happening with IT and the Celtics pick. But it is still possible that just the trade itself will end up worse than some of the hypothetical trades you postulated specifically to make this trade look good. And that is before getting to giving Kyrie to our biggest rival in the division.

We also did not squeeze the Celtics on this trade. We let them unload problems on us (IT and to an extent Crowder were problems for them, not assets) and unwanted players (Zizic). The only real asset they actually gave us here was the Nets pick, and they could see that pick probably wouldn't be top 4. In exchange we gave them a top 20 NBA player.

This was a historically important trade for the Cavs, because Kyrie is the kind of player you only get once every decade at most, and because this current stretch is the back end of Lebron's prime, and Lebron is the kind of player you only get once in a franchise's history. If it ends up that the trade doesn't produce long-term value for us and does produce long-term value for our biggest EC rival then there is no way to put lipstick on that pig, no matter how many excuses you try to make.

 

[cavsfever]

You do understand that Celtics/Wizards series went 7, right? And could have gone either way, right? While Boston will be favored to win, and rightfully so, it's not unreasonable at all to think Washington wins that series.

Boston is exponentially better than last year, while the Wizards are exactly the same team. Last year's series has little if any relevance to this year. We are going to meet the Celtics in the playoffs, and it's foolish to look at this year so far and think we're a lock to beat them.

After looking at last year's playoffs, where we exploded and demolished teams after looking just as bad as now at the end of the regular season, I would still favor us a bit. But IMO there's no question Boston has a chance to beat us.

 

[czvo]

This post seems like just excuse-making for the front office to me. I don't see how one can argue this when we didn't use all the mechanisms we had available to pressure Kyrie (showing we were willing to force him to hold out or play for us), something that would have changed the equation on all the back-channeling you claim. And despite your claims, none of us have a crystal ball to tell what other teams might have offered over time. Finally, there is a longer-term screwup here that we may never know the answer to. Why did we have to rush one of the most important trades in Cavs history over the last few weeks of the off-season, after guys like Paul George and Butler had moved? When did the FO know that Kyrie was dissatisfied and wanted to go? Why didn't they have a better sense earlier with more time to work this out?

The full evaluation of the Celtics trade will have to wait until probably next year, after we see what ends up happening with IT and the Celtics pick. But it is still possible that just the trade itself will end up worse than some of the hypothetical trades you postulated specifically to make this trade look good. And that is before getting to giving Kyrie to our biggest rival in the division.

We also did not squeeze the Celtics on this trade. We let them unload problems on us (IT and to an extent Crowder were problems for them, not assets) and unwanted players (Zizic). The only real asset they actually gave us here was the Nets pick, and they could see that pick probably wouldn't be top 4. In exchange we gave them a top 20 NBA player.

This was a historically important trade for the Cavs, because Kyrie is the kind of player you only get once every decade at most, and because this current stretch is the back end of Lebron's prime, and Lebron is the kind of player you only get once in a franchise's history. If it ends up that the trade doesn't produce long-term value for us and does produce long-term value for our biggest EC rival then there is no way to put lipstick on that pig, no matter how many excuses you try to make.

When IBWT tells you what other teams are offering, he's not just giving you educated guesses.

 

[MirORich]

The best part about Boston's start is how soul crushing it's going to be to Bill Simmons and Chris Mannix, when the Celtics don't make the Finals, preferably taken out by us.

The national NBA media has a lot of guys that started out as Celtics writers or Celtics fans, so some of them(Mannix specifically) are already proclaiming it a Celtics/Warriors June.

The past few years they've fallen back on the "well we just don't have the talent yet" excuse and didn't take their playoff losses too bad. This year, they belief their inalienable manifest destiny rights as NBA royalty are back in full effect, so when they don't advance to the Finals, it is going to sting like hell.

This is not an indictment on BOS, their coach, or their players. Clearly, they are one of the ECF teams that should be dominant for many years to come. I just don't believe they will reach the Finals this year, whether they win 55, 62, or 69 regular season games.

 

[Ohio]

Boston is exponentially better than last year, while the Wizards are exactly the same team. Last year's series has little if any relevance to this year. We are going to meet the Celtics in the playoffs, and it's foolish to look at this year so far and think we're a lock to beat them.

After looking at last year's playoffs, where we exploded and demolished teams after looking just as bad as now at the end of the regular season, I would still favor us a bit. But IMO there's no question Boston has a chance to beat us.

Just so many bad takes in one post. Well done.

 

[cavsfever]

Just so many bad takes in one post. Well done.

Three out of five guys on the Celtics starting lineup are different from last year, and none of the Wizards are, but it's a "bad take" that the Celtics are very different from and better than last year but the Wizards haven't changed? A lot of head in the sand denial of the obvious around here. OK, carry on...

 

[Cavatt]

Everyone wants an easy road to the finals, but I do not think that benefits the Cavs at all. In 2015 and 2016 teams put up better fights and the Cavs were better prepared for a really good team in the finals. The Celtics are a good team to play, and if you can't beat them, you aren't beating GS. Dealing with a talent like Kyrie and smart players in Horford along with great athletes and talent off the bench like Tatum, are all things that will have to be dealt with in GS.

Waltzing to the finals is cool for health reasons, but I have never been convinced that the extra rest is better than the mental toughness and readiness that fighting your way there creates. I hope we battle the Bucks, Wiards and Celtics and get better. Last year the cavs were like a hot knife through butter that hit a brick in the end.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

This post seems like just excuse-making for the front office to me.

What are you talking about?No reason for an excuse to even be needed because they made a good trade.

I don't see how one can argue this when we didn't use all the mechanisms we had available to pressure Kyrie (showing we were willing to force him to hold out or play for us)

You’re making it all about Kyrie. The Cavs also had an entire locker room full of guys who actually wanted to be here to worry about. It’s a risk vs reward, cost/benefit analysis at its core. The calculations are clear to me. Kyrie had to go. His own teammates were openly disgusted with him to management and they wanted no part of playing another game with him. Kyrie made his choice. We could have made him stay and tried to pressure him to play...even if he eventually acquiesced and reported to the team..then you have a scorched earth locker room, a pissed off #2 option whose value declines every single game that goes by where he isn’t traded . Look at what we got for Kyrie compared to literally every other star that’s been traded. The Cavs got the best overall return that I have ever seen since the Melo trade and our deal has the potential to even out-do that deal.

something that would have changed the equation on all the back-channeling you claim.

When you are a GM and are literally told by Kyrie Irving’s agent that his “long-term interests don’t match up with what your team can offer”...are you going to go ahead write the blank check to Koby Altman and hope that through you’re precious “pressure and tactics” that you can change the guys mind over time? Or are you going to hedge your bets and not risk your job on the whims of a guy who just requested a trade from a title contender ?

And despite your claims, none of us have a crystal ball to tell what other teams might have offered over time.

Well I know what was offered before we agreed to the Boston deal and I know what was offered when the IT physical was holding the deal up. Teams knew they had a chance to improve their offers to compete with Boston and no team added anything of real consequence because they didn’t want to pay the price for a guy who flat out told them not to trade for him. And the teams he was willing to go already gave their best offers. They had nothing to add. The only exception being the Knicks. They could have swooped in with Porzingis and strongly considered doing it, but eventually decided against it. And KP has only cemented himself as untouchable in the first 18 games...so if they weren’t trading him before, they certainly weren’t doing it now.

And we know that the way the NBA works, the closer a player is to free agency, the lower his value is. The more disgruntled a player is, the less value you get for them. The poorer your season goes, the more teams try to put he screws to you in a trade. As AC said, Pressure bursts pipes.

Finally, there is a longer-term screwup here that we may never know the answer to. Why did we have to rush one of the most important trades in Cavs history over the last few weeks of the off-season, after guys like Paul George and Butler had moved?

We didn’t even have to rush it. We worked on the trade for almost 2 months. It was well vetted and thought out.

When did the FO know that Kyrie was dissatisfied and wanted to go? Why didn't they have a better sense earlier with more time to work this out?

He asked for a trade around July 7th.

Kyrie has always been a bit of a moody bitch at times. My feeling is that he purposely waited until after transaction season to purposely try and force himself to a team he wanted to play for.

We had some dicusssions with other teams involving moving Kyrie around the draft. But ultimately we decided we wanted to keep LeBron and Kyrie together and go from there. We also thought we were going to get Paul George for Kevin Love until Indiana backed out at the last minute.

The full evaluation of the Celtics trade will have to wait until probably next year, after we see what ends up happening with IT and the Celtics pick.

It’ll take longer than that, unless we trade the Brooklyn pick. Honestly.

But it is still possible that just the trade itself will end up worse than some of the hypothetical trades you postulated specifically to make this trade look good.

Milwaukee was the only one even in the ballpark and Kyrie made that hard by telling them he didn’t want to go there. And you run into the same exact “rival gets Kyrie” problem except Giannis is way better than anything on Boston.

We also did not squeeze the Celtics on this trade. We let them unload problems on us (IT and to an extent Crowder were problems for them, not assets) and unwanted players (Zizic).

We wanted IT though...he’s going to end up being more important than people think. The Cavs wanted an all-star PG to pair with LeBron. There was no other avenue to doing that while still landing a blue chip asset. And Crowder was not a problem for Boston. That’s asinine. He’s better than Marcus Morris who plays quite a bit for them. At the very least he’s one of the most valuable contracts in the NBA and could easily fetch a decent first round pick in a trade. He would have been an easy guy for Boston to get value for. They did NOT want to include him. The Cavs had to push hard for him. And you’re also wrong about Zizic being unwanted by Boston. They have poor Big depth and they really liked Ante as a prospect. Again, Ante was supposed to be a late first rounder, the Cavs wanted Zizic instead of Boston’s first round pick. Zizic was picked in the early 20’s, had a great year overseas, and guys like John Givony said he would have been a lotto pick in the 2017 Draft. Youre projecting your own feelings as Boston’s “plan” when that wasn’t the case. They did not want to give us Crowder or Zizic.

The only real asset they actually gave us here was the Nets pick, and they could see that pick probably wouldn't be top 4

Do you know how hard Ainge tried to not trade the pick? Do you have any idea the stuff he passed on to keep the Nets pick(Jimmy Butler, Paul George)? The Celtics valued that pick very highly.

This was a historically important trade for the Cavs

And they made the best deal they possibly could have.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I'm happy we didn't trade for Middleton. He is fucking horrid right now and Thon isn't even a starter material.

Josh Jackson is a project so we dodged that aswell.

Only thing that bothers me is that we could have gotten another asset. I'm sure of it. Celtics were locked on Kyrie.

And obviously Crowder is just not very good.

 

[Ohio]

Three out of five guys on the Celtics starting lineup are different from last year, and none of the Wizards are, but it's a "bad take" that the Celtics are very different from and better than last year but the Wizards haven't changed? A lot of head in the sand denial of the obvious around here. OK, carry on...

The players are different but they're the same "threat" they were last year. The regular season darlings, with the #1 seed and great defense and heart and all of the moral victory accolades and everything led by Brad Stevens, one star and a bunch of role players.

Much like the Cavs this year, this is the same team just with different players. Same team that doesn't give a shit in the regular season, picks and chooses when they want to play hard, and then just dominates in the East in the playoffs led by the best player in the world and 2 other all-stars.

The end result will be the same. If the two teams play in the playoffs again this year, the Celtics will once again be lucky to win one game.

 

[Los216]

View: https://twitter.com/TheHerd/status/931623498375618560

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

The players are different but they're the same "threat" they were last year. The regular season darlings, with the #1 seed and great defense and heart and all of the moral victory accolades and everything led by Brad Stevens, one star and a bunch of role players.

Much like the Cavs this year, this is the same team just with different players. Same team that doesn't give a shit in the regular season, picks and chooses when they want to play hard, and then just dominates in the East in the playoffs led by the best player in the world and 2 other all-stars.

The end result will be the same. If the two teams play in the playoffs again this year, the Celtics will once again be lucky to win one game.

Nah, they are not the same.

Last year they had only one real creator in IT. Brown wasn't ready, Bradley was a scorer at times, but he wasn't a creator, he came off screens from mid range and 3, Crowder was left to shoot open 3's from the top of the key everytime we trapped IT and they had just atrocious rebounding that killed them in that series.
Everytime IT gave the ball up, they had to give it back to him because no one was able to create off the dribble, they were exploitable.

When he was out with an injury, their were better overall because their defense was improved and their weakest link on defense was gone. Now, they have no real weakness on D and their ceiling is higher. They have multiple creators on the floor, Horford is playing at a peak level and our perimeter defenders look worse than ever.

Jr needs to improve his defense fast because Brown is gaining confidence and we have no rim protector to cover for him.

 

[Ohio]

Nah, they are not the same.

Last year they had only one real creator in IT. Brown wasn't ready, Bradley was a scorer at times, but he wasn't a creator, he came off screens from mid range and 3, Crowder was left to shoot open 3's from the top of the key everytime we trapped IT and they had just atrocious rebounding that killed them in that series.
Everytime IT gave the ball up, they had to give it back to him because no one was able to create off the dribble, they were exploitable.

When he was out with an injury, their were better overall because their defense was improved and their weakest link on defense was gone. Now, they have no real weakness on D and their ceiling is higher. They have multiple creators on the floor, Horford is playing at a peak level and our perimeter defenders look worse than ever.

Jr needs to improve his defense fast because Brown is gaining confidence and we have no rim protector to cover for him.

The Celtics were not better without IT. That team doesn't win 30 games without him last year.

They do have a weakness on D, they have nobody to block shots. LeBron & IT are going to live at the rim against them.

Horford has been amazing but he is not going to continue playing like a top 10 player. If he does, then yeah we'll have a more interesting series this year. Also, I think it's safe to assume their young guys won't be as good as they've been come playoff time.

Point is, they aren't a threat to the Cavs, just like they weren't last year. They never were and they still aren't. We go through this shit every year. First it was the Hawks/Bulls, then it was the Raptors and now it's the Celtics. None of them were actual challengers (Bulls series only went 6 because of our injuries) and nothing has changed this season.

 

[Real Deal]

The Celtics were not better without IT. That team doesn't win 30 games without him last year.

They do have a weakness on D, they have nobody to block shots. LeBron & IT are going to live at the rim against them.

Horford has been amazing but he is not going to continue playing like a top 10 player. If he does, then yeah we'll have a more interesting series this year. Also, I think it's safe to assume their young guys won't be as good as they've been come playoff time.

Point is, they aren't a threat to the Cavs, just like they weren't last year. They never were and they still aren't. We go through this shit every year. First it was the Hawks/Bulls, then it was the Raptors and now it's the Celtics. None of them were actual challengers (Bulls series only went 6 because of our injuries) and nothing has changed this season.

Best part about this whole Boston ordeal is when LeBron is done with them, then Philly will take over and carry on the beatings they took from LeBron. Embiid will expose their non rim protection/non big man defense.