2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[ACisKING]

View: https://twitter.com/TheHerd/status/931623498375618560[/QUOTE].

Why exactly couldn't he? It's a pointless hypothetical anyway because barring major injury, I just can't see Boston beating Cleveland in a seven game series.

 

[ACisKING]

This post seems like just excuse-making for the front office to me. I don't see how one can argue this when we didn't use all the mechanisms we had available to pressure Kyrie (showing we were willing to force him to hold out or play for us), something that would have changed the equation on all the back-channeling you claim. And despite your claims, none of us have a crystal ball to tell what other teams might have offered over time. Finally, there is a longer-term screwup here that we may never know the answer to. Why did we have to rush one of the most important trades in Cavs history over the last few weeks of the off-season, after guys like Paul George and Butler had moved? When did the FO know that Kyrie was dissatisfied and wanted to go? Why didn't they have a better sense earlier with more time to work this out?

The full evaluation of the Celtics trade will have to wait until probably next year, after we see what ends up happening with IT and the Celtics pick. But it is still possible that just the trade itself will end up worse than some of the hypothetical trades you postulated specifically to make this trade look good. And that is before getting to giving Kyrie to our biggest rival in the division.

We also did not squeeze the Celtics on this trade. We let them unload problems on us (IT and to an extent Crowder were problems for them, not assets) and unwanted players (Zizic). The only real asset they actually gave us here was the Nets pick, and they could see that pick probably wouldn't be top 4. In exchange we gave them a top 20 NBA player.

This was a historically important trade for the Cavs, because Kyrie is the kind of player you only get once every decade at most, and because this current stretch is the back end of Lebron's prime, and Lebron is the kind of player you only get once in a franchise's history. If it ends up that the trade doesn't produce long-term value for us and does produce long-term value for our biggest EC rival then there is no way to put lipstick on that pig, no matter how many excuses you try to make.

With all due respect, IBWT is an actual insider who has broken stories time and again. He isn't just speculating when he says what the offers were.

To your other points, I'm sure the Cavs would have been content keeping Kyrie in a perfect world. But the organization's hands were forced when Kyrie wanted out. They got the best they could get from him and moved on. And I'd argue, given their limited leverage, they got a pretty great return.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

The Celtics were not better without IT. That team doesn't win 30 games without him last year.

They do have a weakness on D, they have nobody to block shots. LeBron & IT are going to live at the rim against them.

Horford has been amazing but he is not going to continue playing like a top 10 player. If he does, then yeah we'll have a more interesting series this year. Also, I think it's safe to assume their young guys won't be as good as they've been come playoff time.

Point is, they aren't a threat to the Cavs, just like they weren't last year. They never were and they still aren't. We go through this shit every year. First it was the Hawks/Bulls, then it was the Raptors and now it's the Celtics. None of them were actual challengers (Bulls series only went 6 because of our injuries) and nothing has changed this season.

Very big difference between the Regular season and the Playoffs with the Celtics from last year. No one tried to abuse IT in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was the main target on both defense and offense.

Celtics were better without IT against us, they won a game and we almost lost another one if not for Kyrie's heroic comeback. It's different when you zero on a player and expose his weakness on both ends, you also play with much greater effort.

I mean, I think Stevens has proven that he can win games with or without Kyrie. He just needs a balanced team and this team is more balanced than before.

As for them not blocking shots, it's not important. I'd argue that blocking shots is inferior to blocking penetration or contesting and lowring the efficiency rather than just give another possession. Horford is an above average rim protecor, Baynes is a good rim protecor and Daniel Theis is also not bad.

I don't think Stevens is going to allow us to get to the rim like how Lebron did against Olynyk. Curry didn't get to the rim at all, Durant didn't get to the rim yesterday... they will use whatever they have in their arsenal to not allow that. However, I think that Lebron can force is way inside using brute force if we use the right lineups on the floor.

What about our lack of rim protection? Celtics is far ahead of ours in that department. We will have IT guarding Kyrie and both of our bigs guarding the perimeter.

We will not be able to switch the Kyrie/Horford PnR and our PnR defense, especially against spread offense is shit.

 

[Ohio]

Best part about this whole Boston ordeal is when LeBron is done with them, then Philly will take over and carry on the beatings they took from LeBron. Embiid will expose their non rim protection/non big man defense.

If they don't get Anthony Davis they are probably fucked.

 

[Ohio]

Very big difference between the Regular season and the Playoffs with the Celtics from last year. No one tried to abuse IT in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was the main target on both defense and offense.

Celtics were better without IT against us, they won a game and we almost lost another one if not for Kyrie's heroic comeback. It's different when you zero on a player and expose his weakness on both ends, you also play with much greater effort.

I mean, I think Stevens has proven that he can win games with or without Kyrie. He just needs a balanced team and this team is more balanced than before.

As for them not blocking shots, it's not important. I'd argue that blocking shots is inferior to blocking penetration or contesting and lowring the efficiency rather than just give another possession. Horford is an above average rim protecor, Baynes is a good rim protecor and Daniel Theis is also not bad.

I don't think Stevens is going to allow us to get to the rim like how Lebron did against Olynyk. Curry didn't get to the rim at all, Durant didn't get to the rim yesterday... they will use whatever they have in their arsenal to not allow that. However, I think that Lebron can force is way inside using brute force if we use the right lineups on the floor.

Nobody stops LeBron from getting to the rim but himself. Certainly no one on the goddamn Celtics is going to stop him from doing it.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Nobody stops LeBron from getting to the rim but himself. Certainly no one on the goddamn Celtics is going to stop him from doing it.

What about our lack of rim protection? Celtics is far ahead of ours in that department. We will have IT guarding Kyrie and both of our bigs guarding the perimeter.

We will not be able to switch the Kyrie/Horford PnR and our PnR defense, especially against spread offense is shit.

Are we going to trap Kyrie like we did with IT?

 

[Ohio]

Guys all these Lue avy's are confusing as hell

Are we going to trap Kyrie like we did with IT?

Yep.

 

[czvo]

View: https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/931638811766939648


View: https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/931639087668240384



Pretty much how I feel

 

[Chris]

I wonder if we will hire a real coach for the post-LeBron era when the team goes the youth route. The Celtics make me jealous. They are exactly the type of team I wish we had, and super young to boot.

 

[Rich]

I'm happy we didn't trade for Middleton. He is fucking horrid right now and Thon isn't even a starter material.

Josh Jackson is a project so we dodged that aswell.

Only thing that bothers me is that we could have gotten another asset. I'm sure of it. Celtics were locked on Kyrie.

And obviously Crowder is just not very good.

You get way to caught up in the moment with players.

You did this when you suggested the Jazz would maybe trade Gobert for a draft pick because 15 games into the season he isn't as impactful as he has been the prior 3 years. Years of evidence that he's the best defender in the league but the Jazz might trade him for a draft pick because of 15 games? That's nuts.

Now Middleton isn't good because of 15 games, despite years of evidence that he's a truly elite shooter.

Like, you can't just blow in the wind like that. Middleton is good. He's already started to turn it around the last few games.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

You get way to caught up in the moment with players.

You did this when you suggested the Jazz would maybe trade Gobert for a draft pick because 15 games into the season he isn't as impactful as he has been the prior 3 years. Years of evidence that he's the best defender in the league but the Jazz might trade him for a draft pick because of 15 games? That's nuts.

Now Middleton isn't good because of 15 games, despite years of evidence that he's a truly elite shooter.

Like, you can't just blow in the wind like that. Middleton is good. He's already started to turn it around the last few games.

No, I really don't.

I didn't say the Jazz would look to trade Gobert because he was underperforming. I said they should trade Gobert so they could start a rebuild because they are not going anywhere with him. They are a small market team that doesn't attract free agents and they are not bad enough with him to improve through the draft. I added that he has underperformed, but it was more of a side note than anything and you really never know when these huge dudes start their decline.

Middleton came back from a severe hamstring tear and he hasn't been the same since. He is slower, worse defender and he is prone to iso post play because he can't create off the dribble as well as he did. His shot perhaps will come back, but that doesn't make him a star. never

Middleton he is who he is at this point, an okay 3rd option, but not a star. His playoffs performances were pretty damn bad aswell.

I don't think the trade was a slam dunk, but Middleton and Thon is a pretty meh return in itself.

 

[Rich]

I didn't say the Jazz would look to trade Gobert because he was underperforming. I said they should trade Gobert so they could start a rebuild because they are not going anywhere with him. They are a small market team that doesn't attract free agents and they are not bad enough with him to improve through the draft. I added that he has underperformed, but it was more of a side note than anything and you really never know when these huge dudes start their decline.

No you didn't.

You are being too generous towards Love, but Favors would be a bad trade even if they add more. I wouldn't mind Ingles though in some package.. underrated player.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gobert would be on the block soon. He has had a down year though. HE is usually at the top of RPM, but this year he is barely a positive.

What would you trade for Gobert?

There's your whole post when you brought Gobert up. Notice the total lack of any mention about where the Jazz are going and the focus being solely on Gobert's performance?

Take the L and move on.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

No you didn't.




There's your whole post when you brought Gobert up. Notice the total lack of any mention about where the Jazz are going and the focus being solely on Gobert's performance?

Take the L and move on.

Tried to search for it right now, but couldnt find it. I'm pretty sure I said that they would be smart to trade him, Favors, Hood for draft picks and tank this season with a draft this strong. I thought I said it in this forum, but I guess It was elsewhere.
Anyways, I suggested Gobert as an option because their fans suggest trading him and it makes sense, it was a HYPOTHETICAL queston. I didn't focus on his performance, read carefuly, I said he has had a down year THOUGH, just to point it out as additional info.
Gobert will never allow them to bottom out and they are going nowhere with him without another all-star by his side and even that is no enough. and I also doubt a legit all-star will rather go to the Jazz in FA.

As for Middleton, you probably forgot he had that hamstring injury or else you wouldn't even bring that up. He has been horrid 5 games into his return last year and he hasnt regained his previous form. He will have good games because he is streaky, but that's about it.

Middleton even close to being better than IT and Thon will be a role player for as long as he lives. So how does this package beats IT who's impact is greater than both of them combined before you even factor the additional pick, Crowder(who was supposed to be better and our FO probably valued him pretty highly) and Zizic that we havn't seen anything from yet.

The L stays with you for the time being.

 

[Tornicade]

Kyries effort is there defensively but he’s not one of the “better” defensive guards in the NBA. DRPM has him as an overall average defender this year which is still a gigantic leap from last year so he has gotten better let’s just calm down with the “one of the better defensive guards” thing. You don’t hide “one of the better defensive guards” in the league. And make no mistake, Stevens is hiding Kyrie and doing a masterful job of it schematically.

Helps that his partner Marcus Smart is the 2nd best defensive guard in the entire league.

Kyrie, outside of a nice little two man game with Horford, hasn’t really improved at all offensively from what I’ve seen and the stats back thatnassertion up . Boston’s offense hasn’t been good at all and their best offensive groups have been with Smart on the ball and Kyrie playing the Cleveland role.

Now, where Kyrie HAS improved (besides effort) is in overall basketball IQ. Without LBJ, he used to fire up shot after shot at an all-time clip. Hes been able to mostly(still happens from time to time) reign that in and stick to Boston’s offensive set. He’s also improved at kicking to open shooters from the paint. He’s been protecting the basketball as well, though he was never super bad with turnovers.

But ultimately, Kyries USG is about the same, his efficiency is down across the board. He’s not finishing at the rim as well, and his 3 ball has been bad so far(he’s not getting the same quality looks without LeBron) His assist% is up from the LeBron years but in line with the before LeBron years(for a PG it’s pretty mediocre). His TOV% has improved but that’s about it.

Kyrie is playing the smartest basketball or his career which is helping contribute to wins. But he hasn’t taken any leap anywhere aside from defensive effort. The numbers paint a pretty clear picture. And I’ve watched almost every Celtics game and aside from being a smarter player, I’m not seeing these giant leaps of improvement that you’re claiming exist.

He’s also benefitted from Al Horford playing like a top 5 NBA player.(not sustainable, IMO). Jaylen Brown looking like the next Jimmy Butler/Paul George in just his 2nd year as well as Tatum shooting 50% from 3.
Horford has unquestionably been more impactful than Irving this year which is not something that I saw coming.

If Horford and Tatum regress to even just 40% shooters from deep, Boston’s offense is really going to go in the toilet. Their offense is #22 in the league. And they’re 14-2. Smoke and Mirrors. They are going to come violently crashing down to earth at some point.

The only things that has changed about Horford is your perception of Horford.
Whats helping Horford when he take the ball on the pivot . instead of one guy to kick the ball out too . Horford has three .

This is also the 2nd season Horford has been used as a facilitator and he is getting comfortable with the role.

This whole diminishing of Irving and what he is doing is just petty.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

The only things that has changed about Horford is your perception of Horford.
Whats helping Horford when he take the ball on the pivot . instead of one guy to kick the ball out too . Horford has three .

This is also the 2nd season Horford has been used as a facilitator and he is getting comfortable with the role.

This whole diminishing of Irving and what he is doing is just petty.

Nah. Horford has been playing the best ball maybe of his entire career this season and it’s supported by the numbers. Has nothing to do with perception.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast yesterday that Horford was the Celts MVP.

Lowe and Beck did a podcast too where they detailed how much better Al Horford is playing this year.

It’s a real thing. It’s not a diminishing Kyrie thing either. Has nothing to do with Kyrie. And saying Kyrie hasn’t gotten better since the trade isn’t even a knock. Kyrie was a fucking animal in Cleveland and he’s still a fucking animal. He just isn’t the MVP and he isn’t a different or better player than he was here. The only difference in his game is added defensive effort. We’ve always known he could be an average defender if he just tried and thats what is happening