2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[Tornicade]

You don't think you can back every year and find a 15 game stretch where horford is playing at this level.

The stats bear out another thing and that is assist percentage and using Horford as a distributor is a new role that has is just entering his second season having.

Horford and Irving at this point are complementing each others skills.

but hey Bill Simmons says...

Horford and Irving are both great all star caliber players.

Irving is taking less Shots, making less turnovers and creating more turnovers than what IT did in the same role.. The Celtics as a whole unit have more guys averaging 10 shots a game

Kyrie has started off the year with his highest assist percentage in 4 years.
He is more active on the boards than he has been in the last three years.
His defense has returned to the progression he was making under Blatt.
His points out of the offense is at a pace we haven't seen in three years.

so Kyrie is playing within a scheme. working out of the offense and sharing the ball.

He also looks to be more effective as the season progresses and he as well as his teammates become more familiar with each other.


Yes Horford is getting off to a good start statistically and he is showing more consistency but to act like Horford was a scrub and now he isn't is very disingenuous.

What it comes down for for Horford is when the defenses key on him and he gets off to a bad start in a key playoff. will he figure out a way to recover and contribute.


I have no questions about that in regards to Irving.

 

[czvo]

Nah. Horford has been playing the best ball maybe of his entire career this season and it’s supported by the numbers. Has nothing to do with perception.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast yesterday that Horford was the Celts MVP.

Lowe and Beck did a podcast too where they detailed how much better Al Horford is playing this year.

It’s a real thing. It’s not a diminishing Kyrie thing either. Has nothing to do with Kyrie. And saying Kyrie hasn’t gotten better since the trade isn’t even a knock. Kyrie was a fucking animal in Cleveland and he’s still a fucking animal. He just isn’t the MVP and he isn’t a different or better player than he was here. The only difference in his game is added defensive effort. We’ve always known he could be an average defender if he just tried and thats what is happening

It's not always the best way to determine a guy is more impactful, but in this case, the basic numbers absolutely support the eye test that Horford is playing the best ball of his career.

Last year Horford was 14-6.8 on 47% FG and 35% three

This year? 15.5-9 on 58% FG and 44% three

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You don't think you can back every year and find a 15 game stretch where horford is playing at this level.

And I can stretch back the last two years and find entire seasons where Kyrie is playing at the level he is now.

but hey Bill Simmons says...

Just pointing out the opinion of a guy who has every reason to try and give Kyrie all the credit for the Celts success

is taking less Shots, making less turnovers and creating more turnovers than what IT did in the same role.. The Celtics as a whole unit have more guys averaging 10 shots a game

Okay. Let’s compare the offensive results.

2016-17 Celts ORTG(via Basketball Reference)
111.88 (8th in the NBA)

2017-2018 Celts ORTG
106.37 (19th in the NBA)

Their D is what’s winning them games and Kyrie to his credit (for the third time I’ll say it) has turned into an average defender so far
But the offense that Kyrie for all intents and purposes is in charge of, is sputtering and below average.

Kyrie has started off the year with his highest assist percentage in 4 years.

Naturally that would go up without playing with LeBron. Still lower than his rookie year and very pedestrian for a point guard. Not sure this helps your argument.

He is more active on the boards than he has been in the last three years.

Barely, not enough to be of any consequences .And he’s been more active on the defensive glass but less active on the offensive glass. Fits with his obvious uptick in defensive effort.

His defense has returned to the progression he was making under Blatt.

I’ll leave the Blatt part alone...but you’re STILL on that soapbox? Good lord, Torn...

And congrats to a Kyrie for being a professional this year and trying defensively. Nice to know he let his feelings dictate his professionalism and effort when he was here.

so Kyrie is playing within a scheme. working out of the offense and sharing the ball.

And it’s got his team as a bottom 11 offense, and Kyrie struggling with efficiency. And the sharing the ball thing is quite the reach. But I’ll give you your 4% increased assist % if you really hold it that dearly

He also looks to be more effective as the season progresses and he as well as his teammates become more familiar with each other.

Fair point. They should get better offensively. #19 won’t cut it. Don’t think they’ll be top 10 again anytime soon though.

Yes Horford is getting off to a good start statistically and he is showing more consistency but to act like Horford was a scrub and now he isn't is very disingenuous.

He’s been great defensively. But he’s shooting the 3 10% better than he ever has and also has been rebounding better than he has in years. Well see if the trend holds. Never said he was a scrub but he’s having one of the best starts to a season in his career and he’s been Boston’s best player so far. He’s been great. Kyries been good. But just not better than he used to be here...in my opinion. But he also was a damn good player here so it shouldn’t be taken as trashing Kyrie. Just pointing out that the Celts aren’t 14-2 because Kyrie took a leap and is destroying the league. That’s all.

 

[Rich]

Tried to search for it right now, but couldnt find it. I'm pretty sure I said that they would be smart to trade him, Favors, Hood for draft picks and tank this season with a draft this strong. I thought I said it in this forum, but I guess It was elsewhere.
Anyways, I suggested Gobert as an option because their fans suggest trading him and it makes sense, it was a HYPOTHETICAL queston. I didn't focus on his performance, read carefuly, I said he has had a down year THOUGH, just to point it out as additional info.
Gobert will never allow them to bottom out and they are going nowhere with him without another all-star by his side and even that is no enough. and I also doubt a legit all-star will rather go to the Jazz in FA.

As for Middleton, you probably forgot he had that hamstring injury or else you wouldn't even bring that up. He has been horrid 5 games into his return last year and he hasnt regained his previous form. He will have good games because he is streaky, but that's about it.

Middleton even close to being better than IT and Thon will be a role player for as long as he lives. So how does this package beats IT who's impact is greater than both of them combined before you even factor the additional pick, Crowder(who was supposed to be better and our FO probably valued him pretty highly) and Zizic that we havn't seen anything from yet.

The L stays with you for the time being.

The idea was for Middleton and Brogdon as the bsckbone of a trade. Not Maker.

And both guys hold more value than an injured Thomas on the last year of his deal.

And Thomas last year was definitely a better player. Thomas all years prior? When you factor in how much of a negative he is on defense compared to Middleton being a plus defender? Probably not.

 

[Tornicade]

And I can stretch back the last two years and find entire seasons where Kyrie is playing at the level he is now.
Just pointing out the opinion of a guy who has every reason to try and give Kyrie all the credit for the Celts success
Okay. Let’s compare the offensive results.
2016-17 Celts ORTG(via Basketball Reference)
111.88 (8th in the NBA)
2017-2018 Celts ORTG
106.37 (19th in the NBA)
Their D is what’s winning them games and Kyrie to his credit (for the third time I’ll say it) has turned into an average defender so far
But the offense that Kyrie for all intents and purposes is in charge of, is sputtering and below average.
Naturally that would go up without playing with LeBron. Still lower than his rookie year and very pedestrian for a point guard. Not sure this helps your argument.

Barely, not enough to be of any consequences .And he’s been more active on the defensive glass but less active on the offensive glass. Fits with his obvious uptick in defensive effort.

I’ll leave the Blatt part alone...but you’re STILL on that soapbox? Good lord, Torn...

And congrats to a Kyrie for being a professional this year and trying defensively. Nice to know he let his feelings dictate his professionalism and effort when he was here.

And it’s got his team as a bottom 11 offense, and Kyrie struggling with efficiency. And the sharing the ball thing is quite the reach. But I’ll give you your 4% increased assist % if you really hold it that dearly

Fair point. They should get better offensively. #19 won’t cut it. Don’t think they’ll be top 10 again anytime soon though.

He’s been great defensively. But he’s shooting the 3 10% better than he ever has and also has been rebounding better than he has in years. Well see if the trend holds. Never said he was a scrub but he’s having one of the best starts to a season in his career and he’s been Boston’s best player so far. He’s been great. Kyries been good. But just not better than he used to be here...in my opinion. But he also was a damn good player here so it shouldn’t be taken as trashing Kyrie. Just pointing out that the Celts aren’t 14-2 because Kyrie took a leap and is destroying the league. That’s all.

Their offense is more dangerous this season than last season. Yet the Cavs fall in defense Mirrored their changing of coaches.

Year 1- The Cavs with Kyrie Irving allowed the second fewest points per game and the 3rd lowest FG percentage in the playoffs with Kyrie Irving.

Year 2. The Cavs only allowed a 44% fg percentage and 96 points per game

Year 3. The Cavs jumped up to 116 points per game as part of a full season playing at a faster pace but in turn yielded a 108 points a game. gaining 8 points per game and losing 12 points per game defensively. while allowing .45% shooting.


Now Kyrie is in a slower paced offensive and is performing better defensively as is his team.

You can also measure a tale of two half's as The Cavs defense began its decline once Lue took over as it was improved from the season before and dropped drastically even further once Lue took over.

The Cavs meanwhile has not improved defensively without Irving and are currently last in the NBA in defensive rating.

I already outlined the difference so far in Boston's ratings from last year to this year.
Boston lost Bradley and Crowder .. who would of thought they would be better.

Boston right now is a sum of their parts and those parts include Al Horford and Kyrie Irving.

What we are seeing is Horford in a system that has him distribute the ball out of the post and Horford is thriving .

Boston still has a lot of improving to do. They have puled out some wins that they most likely should of lost. but that team we are seeing now isn't the team that will be n the playoffs.

Outside of Tatum hitting that rookie wall for a stretch they are a young team that will get better and that Include Irving who is still looking to find his rhythm and shot in a more physical playstyle.

Irving still opens up the floor and he is slowing down his opponent enough for the defense to set.

but yeah I am still on the Blatt soapbox. I don't believe the Cavs would of been down 3-1 to the Warrior's under Blatt in the first place. I don't think Irving would of been demanding to leave under Blatt and the Cavs would of been in better shape going forward.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Their offense is more dangerous this season than last season. Yet the Cavs fall in defense Mirrored their changing of coaches.

Year 1- The Cavs with Kyrie Irving allowed the second fewest points per game and the 3rd lowest FG percentage in the playoffs with Kyrie Irving.

Year 2. The Cavs only allowed a 44% fg percentage and 96 points per game

Year 3. The Cavs jumped up to 116 points per game as part of a full season playing at a faster pace but in turn yielded a 108 points a game. gaining 8 points per game and losing 12 points per game defensively. while allowing .45% shooting.


Now Kyrie is in a slower paced offensive and is performing better defensively as is his team.

You can also measure a tale of two half's as The Cavs defense began its decline once Lue took over as it was improved from the season before and dropped drastically even further once Lue took over.

The Cavs meanwhile has not improved defensively without Irving and are currently last in the NBA in defensive rating.

I already outlined the difference so far in Boston's ratings from last year to this year.
Boston lost Bradley and Crowder .. who would of thought they would be better.

Boston right now is a sum of their parts and those parts include Al Horford and Kyrie Irving.

What we are seeing is Horford in a system that has him distribute the ball out of the post and Horford is thriving .

Boston still has a lot of improving to do. They have puled out some wins that they most likely should of lost. but that team we are seeing now isn't the team that will be n the playoffs.

Outside of Tatum hitting that rookie wall for a stretch they are a young team that will get better and that Include Irving who is still looking to find his rhythm and shot in a more physical playstyle.

Irving still opens up the floor and he is slowing down his opponent enough for the defense to set.

but yeah I am still on the Blatt soapbox. I don't believe the Cavs would of been down 3-1 to the Warrior's under Blatt in the first place. I don't think Irving would of been demanding to leave under Blatt and the Cavs would of been in better shape going forward.

Well just have to agree to disagree my guy. Celts offense looked better tonight (against a bad Hawks team though). Kyrie was super efficient too.
They’ll improve offensively and take a step back defensively though. Doubt they get to #8 offensively again though. We’ll see.

As for the Blatt stuff...IDK. Not gonna re litigate that.

 

[TheCity]

I think we could use a Kyrie Irving problem right about now, until IT gets back.

 

[cavsfever]

With all due respect, IBWT is an actual insider who has broken stories time and again. He isn't just speculating when he says what the offers were.

To your other points, I'm sure the Cavs would have been content keeping Kyrie in a perfect world. But the organization's hands were forced when Kyrie wanted out. They got the best they could get from him and moved on. And I'd argue, given their limited leverage, they got a pretty great return.

I had not heard the claim about IBTW before (made several times above). With all due respect, making thousands of posts on anonymous internet message boards is not something that actual insiders -- people who are at the table and truly in the loop for hundred-million dollar decisions -- do in the real world. On the other hand, I have never been on an anonymous message board where there wasn't somebody claiming to be an "actual insider". So I take such claims with a heavy grain of salt. It it is extremely unlikely that this guy is an actual high level insider. If, more likely, he is a random low level guy with some personal social connections to Cavs insiders it is likely that those insiders would feed him a self-justifying line of PR to make the Cavs look good (such as, for example, "the Kyrie Irving trade was the best of all possible trades and no where in the galactic multiverse was there any alternative whatsoever to trading our second best player to our biggest rival while getting a risky and limited return").

The jury is still out on this trade. We still have not seen how the two biggest pieces, Isiah Thomas and the Nets pick, are going to pan out. If neither do work out -- if for example we get just a half year of play from IT and he is not a good enough defender or healthy enough to be a key starter and leader on a championship level team, and the Nets pick turns out to be a mid-level lottery pick and we get the average player one usually gets from a mid-level lottery pick -- then all the internet excuse-making in the world won't pretty up that mess. But I certainly hope it works out better than that.

 

[cavsfever]

And saying Kyrie hasn’t gotten better since the trade isn’t even a knock. Kyrie was a fucking animal in Cleveland and he’s still a fucking animal. He just isn’t the MVP and he isn’t a different or better player than he was here. The only difference in his game is added defensive effort. We’ve always known he could be an average defender if he just tried and thats what is happening

Kyrie is showing career highs in defensive effort and assist-to-turnover ratio. His career lows currently are in shooting percentage and offensive efficiency. If he fixes the shooting and efficiency, which based on his entire career I would bet on him doing, and maintains the defensive effort and better distribution/PG skills, he's become a better player. But as you point out, even if he doesn't he is still a superb player and a major step up over IT for the Celtics.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Tried to search for it right now, but couldnt find it. I'm pretty sure I said that they would be smart to trade him, Favors, Hood for draft picks and tank this season with a draft this strong. I thought I said it in this forum, but I guess It was elsewhere.
Anyways, I suggested Gobert as an option because their fans suggest trading him and it makes sense, it was a HYPOTHETICAL queston. I didn't focus on his performance, read carefuly, I said he has had a down year THOUGH, just to point it out as additional info.
Gobert will never allow them to bottom out and they are going nowhere with him without another all-star by his side and even that is no enough. and I also doubt a legit all-star will rather go to the Jazz in FA.

As for Middleton, you probably forgot he had that hamstring injury or else you wouldn't even bring that up. He has been horrid 5 games into his return last year and he hasnt regained his previous form. He will have good games because he is streaky, but that's about it.

Middleton even close to being better than IT and Thon will be a role player for as long as he lives. So how does this package beats IT who's impact is greater than both of them combined before you even factor the additional pick, Crowder(who was supposed to be better and our FO probably valued him pretty highly) and Zizic that we havn't seen anything from yet.

The L stays with you for the time being.

The lengths you will go to avoid ever being perceived as having a bad take is amazing to me sir dom

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

The lengths you will go to avoid ever being perceived as having a bad take is amazing to me sir dom

I disagree.

There was nothing bad about it. Gobert doesn't fit with Utah now and Middleton isn't good. I wouldn't be surprised to see Utah listening to offers for Gobert soon enough.

He misinterpeted my post... never said or intended to make it sound like Utah would put Gobert on the market because of his performance so far this season. Just suggested it as an option for the BKN pick.

 

[Skyscraper]

but yeah I am still on the Blatt soapbox. I don't believe the Cavs would of been down 3-1 to the Warrior's under Blatt in the first place. I don't think Irving would of been demanding to leave under Blatt and the Cavs would of been in better shape going forward.

Thanks to lebron, the self proclaimed king for running Kyrie out of town. Sure, lebron can win you games, but so can a well-coached team with Kyrie..

And when the going gets tough, Kyrie is the man to answer and win you games, lebron can take you to those moments, but cant deliver in those moments, not even in all star games, not even early regular season games.

But give me Kyrie with a nice supporting cast which compliments him with a good / great coach over a lebron team minus the coach full of a bunch of jump shooters all day... but thats just my opinion.

Watching lebron play for him self and his own numbers is annoying. I dont even find myself rooting for the cavs no more.

There were a couple times lebron was even on camera when we picked up a new player saying, "whenever I pass you the ball, just shoot it." lol no he dont care about his numbers, he dont care about his assists. He's just a unselfish player!

I'm sure somebody can dig this practice interview up from when Blatt was coach when he was asked something about why he scrapped the offense or something, dont remember exactly, but bron answered, "nobody knows my game like me, nobody knows how to use me like me." ... Hes just a unselfish star! I cant believe nobody heard the arrogance and selfishness and the "me me me" man that lebron really is in this simple quote.

Anyway, Remember when kyrie dribbled through the olympic team by himself?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MfQKnvEkk


Awman.. I miss him being a Cavalier, but I'm happy for him that hes finally in a healthy situation away from lebron and this horribly run organization.

Will miss the smooth operator!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSfkofZWIFQ


Later, Batman!! Will miss ya in Cleveland!

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Thanks to lebron, the self proclaimed king for running Kyrie out of town. Sure, lebron can win you games, but so can a well-coached team with Kyrie..

And when the going gets tough, Kyrie is the man to answer and win you games, lebron can take you to those moments, but cant deliver in those moments, not even in all star games, not even early regular season games.

But give me Kyrie with a nice supporting cast which compliments him with a good / great coach over a lebron team minus the coach full of a bunch of jump shooters all day... but thats just my opinion.

Watching lebron play for him self and his own numbers is annoying. I dont even find myself rooting for the cavs no more.

There were a couple times lebron was even on camera when we picked up a new player saying, "whenever I pass you the ball, just shoot it." lol no he dont care about his numbers, he dont care about his assists. He's just a unselfish player!

I'm sure somebody can dig this practice interview up from when Blatt was coach when he was asked something about why he scrapped the offense or something, dont remember exactly, but bron answered, "nobody knows my game like me, nobody knows how to use me like me." ... Hes just a unselfish star! I cant believe nobody heard the arrogance and selfishness and the "me me me" man that lebron really is in this simple quote.

Anyway, Remember when kyrie dribbled through the olympic team by himself?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MfQKnvEkk


Awman.. I miss him being a Cavalier, but I'm happy for him that hes finally in a healthy situation away from lebron and this horribly run organization.

Will miss the smooth operator!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSfkofZWIFQ


Later, Batman!! Will miss ya in Cleveland!

Who let the Celtics fan in here?

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Thanks to lebron, the self proclaimed king for running Kyrie out of town. Sure, lebron can win you games, but so can a well-coached team with Kyrie..

And when the going gets tough, Kyrie is the man to answer and win you games, lebron can take you to those moments, but cant deliver in those moments, not even in all star games, not even early regular season games.

But give me Kyrie with a nice supporting cast which compliments him with a good / great coach over a lebron team minus the coach full of a bunch of jump shooters all day... but thats just my opinion.

Watching lebron play for him self and his own numbers is annoying. I dont even find myself rooting for the cavs no more.

There were a couple times lebron was even on camera when we picked up a new player saying, "whenever I pass you the ball, just shoot it." lol no he dont care about his numbers, he dont care about his assists. He's just a unselfish player!

I'm sure somebody can dig this practice interview up from when Blatt was coach when he was asked something about why he scrapped the offense or something, dont remember exactly, but bron answered, "nobody knows my game like me, nobody knows how to use me like me." ... Hes just a unselfish star! I cant believe nobody heard the arrogance and selfishness and the "me me me" man that lebron really is in this simple quote.

Anyway, Remember when kyrie dribbled through the olympic team by himself?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MfQKnvEkk


Awman.. I miss him being a Cavalier, but I'm happy for him that hes finally in a healthy situation away from lebron and this horribly run organization.

Will miss the smooth operator!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSfkofZWIFQ


Later, Batman!! Will miss ya in Cleveland!

What a laughably horrible post

There is literally zero scenario where taking Kyrie instead of LeBron is a good move. Ask the Celtics who they’d have rather had. Or just, ask any team. Or even, ask literally anyone who isn’t you.

 

[Skyscraper]

Who let the Celtics fan in here?

Yeah the celtics fan was following the cavs intently, even to the point of watching cavs practice videos even years ago.