The Oi
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How many baseball fanbases do you think would treat Shaw better had he performed identically with their teams?
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2017 Cleveland Indians
- Thread starter Simon
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How many baseball fanbases do you think would treat Shaw better had he performed identically with their teams?
BimboColesHair
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Considering there are far worse relievers who get treated much better by their fans, I'd say quite a few.
Unfortunate reality for Shaw is Indians fans will always hate him for game 7, even if he has/had lots of regular season success, and post season success.
Indians fans are currently one of the most spoiled fanbases in baseball with their pitching, and have been for a few years, and they are too fucking stubborn to realize it while it is taking place, so much so that they would rather shit on Shaw, Allen, Bauer, Otero, McAllister, etc. any chance they can get, instead of just sitting back and enjoying it.
This fanbase sees Kluber, and now it sees Miller, and expects every starter or reliever to be exactly like them.
BimboColesHair
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For reference.
Things Indians fans hate about Shaw. Blown saves, losses.
Selection of pitchers with as many or more blown saves since 2013:
Trevor Rosenthal
Brad Ziegler
Steve Cishek
David Robertson
Junichi Tazawa
Addison Reed
Luke Gregerson
Fernando Rodney
Jim Johnson
Selection of pitchers with as many or more losses since 2013:
Cody Allen
Kelvin Herrera
Jason Grilli
Fernando Rodney
Trevor Rosenthal
Luke Gregerson
Steve Cishek
Jim Johnson
Tyler Clippard
For one, we know for a fact our fanbase likes Cody Allen a hell of a lot more than they do Bryan Shaw. Really, the only guys who come or have came close to getting the same amount of hate and shit Tribe fans give to Shaw is Jim Johnson and Tyler Clippard in that group. Rosenthal is loved by a stingy ass fanbase in St. Louis, Tazawa was loved by Boston fans of all people, Robertson has been well liked in Chicago and New York of all places. Shit, Mark Melancon is one behind Shaw in the blown saves category, and Pittsburgh fucking loved the guy.
Yeah...I can say with a lot of confidence, as a whole, other fanbases would treat him much better than we do, had he produced at the same rate for them over 5 years. Pitchers who have done more of the things Indians fans can't stand about Shaw are treated better by their fanbases.
The Oi
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What kind of metrics can we use to measure a fanbase's treatment of a player compared to his actual performance? I need advanced stats to be convinced.
BimboColesHair
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Maybe follow the game as a whole...considering I tend to follow the entire league, and not just glance by the Indians when its of convenience to my posting tendencies...
But, we'll use this as an example.
Trevor Rosenthal is getting Tommy John, news just came down a few days ago that that is happening. He happens to have more blown saves and more losses than Shaw since 2013.
Let's get a taste of Cards fans reactions to that news.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cardinals/comments/6vlc8n/goold_trevor_rosenthal_to_60_day_dl_we_all_know/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cardinals/comments/6vm4ax/hrabe_girsch_trevor_rosenthal_needs_tommy_john/
Willing to bet if the same thing happened to Shaw a few days ago, the tone of a significant portion of our fanbase would be assholes saying "that sucks, but at least I don't have to watch him pitch now".
sportscoach
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I love how we have one of the best pitching staffs overall in baseball yet people complain about it. They want to get rid of pitchers and whatnot.
Well who are you guys going to replace Shaw and McAllister with that will be better than them?
@BimboColesHair @AZ_ @Derek what do you guys think of Salazar's arm issue? It seems like he cannot go a full season without an issue in his elbow flaring. Would he be better from the pen to cut down his innings or do we try to keep in the rotation and see if it will go away? I love Salazar's stuff but I do not trust him to stay healthy so I honesty feel that something needs to be changed with him.
Well who are you guys going to replace Shaw and McAllister with that will be better than them?
@BimboColesHair @AZ_ @Derek what do you guys think of Salazar's arm issue? It seems like he cannot go a full season without an issue in his elbow flaring. Would he be better from the pen to cut down his innings or do we try to keep in the rotation and see if it will go away? I love Salazar's stuff but I do not trust him to stay healthy so I honesty feel that something needs to be changed with him.
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Huber.
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"Yes, Bryan Shaw has a lot of scoreless innings. But here are some splits for you to chew on.
In high leverage situations: 9 IP, 10 H, 11 ER, 4 Ks, .313 AVG, .742 SLG, -29.4 LOB%, 6.92 FIP
W/ RISP: 12 IP, 16 H, 23 R, 11 Ks, .327 AVG, .400 OBP, .542 SLG, -5.2 LOB%, 4.97 FIP
W/ Men on Base: 27.1 IP, 28 H, 26 R, 18 Ks, .286 AVG, .343 OBP, .479 SLG, 31.5 LOB%, 4.13 FIP
Low Leverage Situations: 25.1 IP, 22 H, 4 R, .23 Ks, .234 AVG, .294 OBP, .266 SLG, 86.7 LOB%, .227 FIP
Edit: Formatting"
https://www.reddit.com/r/WahoosTipi/comments/6s0pae/some_bryan_shaw_stats/
In high leverage situations: 9 IP, 10 H, 11 ER, 4 Ks, .313 AVG, .742 SLG, -29.4 LOB%, 6.92 FIP
W/ RISP: 12 IP, 16 H, 23 R, 11 Ks, .327 AVG, .400 OBP, .542 SLG, -5.2 LOB%, 4.97 FIP
W/ Men on Base: 27.1 IP, 28 H, 26 R, 18 Ks, .286 AVG, .343 OBP, .479 SLG, 31.5 LOB%, 4.13 FIP
Low Leverage Situations: 25.1 IP, 22 H, 4 R, .23 Ks, .234 AVG, .294 OBP, .266 SLG, 86.7 LOB%, .227 FIP
Edit: Formatting"
https://www.reddit.com/r/WahoosTipi/comments/6s0pae/some_bryan_shaw_stats/
Derek
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Holy small sample size alert.
Yeah, his 10.2 IP of high leverage situations have some hiccups, but that is skewed by a couple really poor outings. Thus the perils of using such a small sample size.
Let's take a look at his career numbers:
38.5% LOB
3.94 FIP
3.56 xFIP
He's been pretty consistently right around those numbers his entire career, and his xFIP is actually 3.49 for this year, which kind of backs up the notion that his other numbers from the 10.2 innings this year are likely a small sample size anomaly.
There's no way around it. Bryan Shaw is a good relief pitcher, and a valuable asset to this team.
Yeah, his 10.2 IP of high leverage situations have some hiccups, but that is skewed by a couple really poor outings. Thus the perils of using such a small sample size.
Let's take a look at his career numbers:
38.5% LOB
3.94 FIP
3.56 xFIP
He's been pretty consistently right around those numbers his entire career, and his xFIP is actually 3.49 for this year, which kind of backs up the notion that his other numbers from the 10.2 innings this year are likely a small sample size anomaly.
There's no way around it. Bryan Shaw is a good relief pitcher, and a valuable asset to this team.
Huber.
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You totally disregarded that horrible, douchy tattoo.
Urban
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Good article on some of his struggles this year: https://www.letsgotribe.com/2017/8/8/16110234/bryan-shaw-2017-stats-pitches-cleveland-indians
Since then:
8 games
8-2/3 IP
2 ER (2.08 ERA)
6 H, 3 BB (1.04 WHIP)
11 K (3.67 K/BB & 11.42 K/9)
No way of knowing myself, without doing way more research, if that means he's been throwing the slider better, but it is encouraging he's been good recently.
And yeah, that tattoo is not great.
Since then:
8 games
8-2/3 IP
2 ER (2.08 ERA)
6 H, 3 BB (1.04 WHIP)
11 K (3.67 K/BB & 11.42 K/9)
No way of knowing myself, without doing way more research, if that means he's been throwing the slider better, but it is encouraging he's been good recently.
And yeah, that tattoo is not great.
Urban
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Was sent from a friend:
ZM: Is there enough positive feedback to make the social media experience worthwhile for you?
BS: What positive feedback? Have you ever been on my Twitter? Google my name. See what pops up.
ZM: Then why have a Twitter account?
BS: I have it for everything other than baseball reasons: people I follow, stuff I look at, entertainment, all that stuff. I keep it for that. The other stuff, negative stuff, I just block, and everything else, I just ignore it. It doesn’t matter to me.
ZM: Is it the nature of a reliever's job — like an offensive lineman or an umpire, where you’re only noticed if you mess up — that makes the social media experience so brutal?
BS: I don’t think it matters if you’re a reliever or not. That’s just the way it is in baseball. Guys have a bad game, they’re going to get yelled at. If they have a good game, hopefully they don’t (get yelled at), but they still probably do. That’s what Twitter is there for, people to vent about their issues through us.
ZM: A few of your bullpen mates mentioned you occasionally share with them some of the negative tweets that stand out.
BS: I get stuff all the time. I can go out there and throw a scoreless inning and strike out three and I still get, ‘You suck,’ or ‘You’re terrible,’ or ‘You need to get traded or quit.’
ZM: Is that tough to take?
BS: Not for me. I read that stuff. Not that I enjoy it, but I like reading that stuff and seeing how people who, in that sense, don’t know or understand baseball. It doesn’t make sense, the stuff that people say. And I think it’s hilarious.
ZM: What does your wife say?
BS: She hates it. She tells me to get off Twitter.
ZM: But you don’t plan on doing that.
BS: No, because on Twitter, that’s what people do. I’m on there knowing that’s what’s going to happen. That’s what people do on there, so it doesn’t bother me.
ZM: Why are you so polarizing?
BS: I’m not sure about that one. It was before the World Series last year, but since then, it’s even worse. People don’t care about stats. It’s, ‘What was the last outing?’ And even if the last outing was good, it’s, ‘Well, he’s going to blow it eventually. He’s going to mess up.’ It doesn’t matter what the stats or anything else says, or how it’s been for the past five years here. It just is what it is.
ZM: You could be headed to free agency this winter. Do you ever think about what fans might think if you’re no longer here next year, or if the bullpen were to struggle or thrive in your absence?
BS: It’s possible. I never thought about it like that, but it’d be awesome if it was, in that sense. If I go sign somewhere else, I’d obviously hope the team does well. You always hope everybody you’ve played with does well. But say there’s something that happens. Then everybody goes, ‘Oh, crap, maybe he was actually good.'
ZM: So, is there anything positive or rewarding about social media for you?
BS: No. Have you looked at my Twitter? I get rewarded for nothing. They hate me. Cleveland fans hate me.
ZM: There are some people who stick up for you on there.
BS: There are definitely a few, but the vast majority of them do not. It is what it is. I’m not worried about it. I don’t care.
ZM: Your teammates suggested that it’s what those in the clubhouse think that matters most. I’d assume you agree with that assessment.
BS: The people who actually understand baseball, know baseball, in the industry, understand the industry, all that kind of stuff, are aware of what we all do here, what I do, everything else and are very happy with it. That’s really all that matters. I don’t care what the person sitting in their parents’ basement writes on Twitter.
ZM: And yet, no plans to abandon Twitter?
BS: Absolutely not.
BS: What positive feedback? Have you ever been on my Twitter? Google my name. See what pops up.
ZM: Then why have a Twitter account?
BS: I have it for everything other than baseball reasons: people I follow, stuff I look at, entertainment, all that stuff. I keep it for that. The other stuff, negative stuff, I just block, and everything else, I just ignore it. It doesn’t matter to me.
ZM: Is it the nature of a reliever's job — like an offensive lineman or an umpire, where you’re only noticed if you mess up — that makes the social media experience so brutal?
BS: I don’t think it matters if you’re a reliever or not. That’s just the way it is in baseball. Guys have a bad game, they’re going to get yelled at. If they have a good game, hopefully they don’t (get yelled at), but they still probably do. That’s what Twitter is there for, people to vent about their issues through us.
ZM: A few of your bullpen mates mentioned you occasionally share with them some of the negative tweets that stand out.
BS: I get stuff all the time. I can go out there and throw a scoreless inning and strike out three and I still get, ‘You suck,’ or ‘You’re terrible,’ or ‘You need to get traded or quit.’
ZM: Is that tough to take?
BS: Not for me. I read that stuff. Not that I enjoy it, but I like reading that stuff and seeing how people who, in that sense, don’t know or understand baseball. It doesn’t make sense, the stuff that people say. And I think it’s hilarious.
ZM: What does your wife say?
BS: She hates it. She tells me to get off Twitter.
ZM: But you don’t plan on doing that.
BS: No, because on Twitter, that’s what people do. I’m on there knowing that’s what’s going to happen. That’s what people do on there, so it doesn’t bother me.
ZM: Why are you so polarizing?
BS: I’m not sure about that one. It was before the World Series last year, but since then, it’s even worse. People don’t care about stats. It’s, ‘What was the last outing?’ And even if the last outing was good, it’s, ‘Well, he’s going to blow it eventually. He’s going to mess up.’ It doesn’t matter what the stats or anything else says, or how it’s been for the past five years here. It just is what it is.
ZM: You could be headed to free agency this winter. Do you ever think about what fans might think if you’re no longer here next year, or if the bullpen were to struggle or thrive in your absence?
BS: It’s possible. I never thought about it like that, but it’d be awesome if it was, in that sense. If I go sign somewhere else, I’d obviously hope the team does well. You always hope everybody you’ve played with does well. But say there’s something that happens. Then everybody goes, ‘Oh, crap, maybe he was actually good.'
ZM: So, is there anything positive or rewarding about social media for you?
BS: No. Have you looked at my Twitter? I get rewarded for nothing. They hate me. Cleveland fans hate me.
ZM: There are some people who stick up for you on there.
BS: There are definitely a few, but the vast majority of them do not. It is what it is. I’m not worried about it. I don’t care.
ZM: Your teammates suggested that it’s what those in the clubhouse think that matters most. I’d assume you agree with that assessment.
BS: The people who actually understand baseball, know baseball, in the industry, understand the industry, all that kind of stuff, are aware of what we all do here, what I do, everything else and are very happy with it. That’s really all that matters. I don’t care what the person sitting in their parents’ basement writes on Twitter.
ZM: And yet, no plans to abandon Twitter?
BS: Absolutely not.