2023-24 Season | Game #16 | Lakers @ Cavs | Nov. 25, 2023 | 7:30 p.m.

[MirORich]

There are several areas where we’re operating at either a disadvantage or suboptimal state.

One that hasn’t gotten much run in the past few weeks as the conversation has shifted to Mitchell and remained on the coach is the fact that we, by roster construction playing at least 20 minutes per game, often longer with two bigs that can not reliably shoot a 3P shot or really much outside 10-15 feet.

In the modern NBA, that’s just rare. And when you combine with some of the other factors that have been discussed as limiting our offensive potential, it’s pretty major.

Like maybe Mobley and Allen can work in a world where DG and two dead eye wing shooters share the floor with them to start games, start halves, and end games. But that’s not what we have

And maybe DG/DM can work in a world where one or both of the bigs are reliable from outside the lane and even 3P, but that’s not what we have. At least not yet, while it could come in future years, there’s simply no reason to think Mobleys theee point shit is just around the corner.

I’m not sure many coaches, even offensive background coaches can change that dynamic. Certainly some could push it behind what JBB has done, but at its core, I’m not sure this roster works with both pairs of lead guards and non shooting bigs.

(I know, a lot of you have been saying this either in full or in one way or the other much prior to this)

 

[Ohioplayer00]

As long as JBB runs an offense where the ball is dribbled/handed off 28 feet from the basket for 15 seconds of the shot clock this team will continue to flounder.
Blame Mitchell all you want but it’s JBB’s system that creates the issues. Our only offense is lob dunks! I have yet, except for the first game of season, to see an offense run that sets up Strus and Naing for open shots.

 

[Boobie4Three]

We need a composer, not a rah rah coach. As talented as the band may be, they will never perform their best with a terrible composer.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

There are several areas where we’re operating at either a disadvantage or suboptimal state.

One that hasn’t gotten much run in the past few weeks as the conversation has shifted to Mitchell and remained on the coach is the fact that we, by roster construction playing at least 20 minutes per game, often longer with two bigs that can not reliably shoot a 3P shot or really much outside 10-15 feet.

In the modern NBA, that’s just rare. And when you combine with some of the other factors that have been discussed as limiting our offensive potential, it’s pretty major.

Like maybe Mobley and Allen can work in a world where DG and two dead eye wing shooters share the floor with them to start games, start halves, and end games. But that’s not what we have

And maybe DG/DM can work in a world where one or both of the bigs are reliable from outside the lane and even 3P, but that’s not what we have. At least not yet, while it could come in future years, there’s simply no reason to think Mobleys theee point shit is just around the corner.

I’m not sure many coaches, even offensive background coaches can change that dynamic. Certainly some could push it behind what JBB has done, but at its core, I’m not sure this roster works with both pairs of lead guards and non shooting bigs.

(I know, a lot of you have been saying this either in full or in one way or the other much prior to this)

Those two bigs looked really good against Detroit, Philly and then Denver

In all 3 games, Mobley was the secondary creator from the high post and the ball movement featured more of Mobley and Allens passing as a result of it not being perimeter iso heavy in the half court.

Specifically the Detroit, Philly and Denver games

The ball was moving, bodies were moving and the two bigs looked like Sabonis and Jokic with their passing during those 3 games

 

[MirORich]

As long as JBB runs an offense where the ball is dribbled/handed off 28 feet from the basket for 15 seconds of the shot clock this team will continue to flounder.
Blame Mitchell all you want but it’s JBB’s system that creates the issues. Our only offense is lob dunks! I have yet, except for the first game of season, to see an offense run that sets up Strus and Naing for open shots.

There are critiscms and breakdowns that are worth listening to and present detailed fact, point, and counterpoint.

This is not one of them.

This team is underperforming at the moment on the coaching strata, player execution and communication strata, and roster contrition strata

Plenty of valid reasons to prefer or want a different coach. But for the people who present it like you just did and think things are even close to being solved by firing the coach and making the correct new hire, we’ll they are going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

[Rich]

I understand the system isn't great, but no coach is telling his guy "hey, pass this ball and then stand still."

I know this because I don't see the other guards doing that with nearly the regularity of Mitchell.

It's who he is as a player.

 

[MirORich]

Those two bigs looked really good against Detroit, Philly and then Denver

In all 3 games, Mobley was the secondary creator from the high post and the ball movement featured more of Mobley and Allens passing as a result of it not being perimeter iso heavy in the half court.

Specifically the Detroit, Philly and Denver games

The ball was moving, bodies were moving and the two bigs looked like Sabonis and Jokic with their passing during those 3 games

Don’t disagree and there’s lot of different ways to win(and lose)

But my list wasn’t singling them out as bad in a vacuum. Or igrnoring the other questions or issues on the roster, scheme, etc.
it was questioning them as a pair also paired with the DM/DG pair as a long term high end play. I certainly see roster construction hopefully possible that would work with the two of them continuing on as our starting bigs.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Don’t disagree and there’s lot of different ways to win(and lose)

But my list wasn’t singling them out as bad in a vacuum. Or igrnoring the other questions or issues on the roster, scheme, etc.
it was questioning them as a pair also paired with the DM/DG pair as a long term high end play. I certainly see roster construction hopefully possible that would work with the two of them continuing on as our starting bigs.

I dunno...

Looks pretty cut and dry to me. Even with a non shooter and unwilling shooter like Wade starting at the 3, they were contributing to Cavalanches again as if Wade was Markkanen next to them.

I think ball and bodies moving on the perimeter is the answer and it flies directly in the face of how Donovan and Caris prefer to play the game on offense.

 

[Rich]

I was very encouraged by Mobley so I'm gonna continue on that train: You know one reason he still has so much value in my eyes, especially on THIS team with some of these dudes? Because he plays. I can count on that man suiting up every night. Despite being labeled as soft or weak, he somehow manages to play every game. I'm gonna assume he gets dinged and banged up just like the other dudes, but he plays through it.

Being available is a very important trait.

 

[MirORich]

Those two bigs looked really good against Detroit, Philly and then Denver

In all 3 games, Mobley was the secondary creator from the high post and the ball movement featured more of Mobley and Allens passing as a result of it not being perimeter iso heavy in the half court.

Specifically the Detroit, Philly and Denver games

The ball was moving, bodies were moving and the two bigs looked like Sabonis and Jokic with their passing during those 3 games

And to this point, I say this not as a defense of JBB, because he’s losing favor with me as well, but if the offense we run shows there are games where it operates with that fluid movement and passing for most of three consecutive games, than can we at least acknowledge the pickle he, or any coach would be in?

You’re not going to bench Donovan Mitchell. You’re not going to call him out in the media or public. You can shows gannet clips in film session all day long of how things should go, but when the game gets going and it’s 5 men vs 5 other men, players of that talent level constantly revert back to what they believe is best. So what do you do? This is the exact same dilemma Quinn Snyder found himself in towards the end in Utah (he has another dilemma now in ATL in that he may never be able to get full defensive but in from a few of his players no matter how much film is reviewed)

 

[MirORich]

I dunno...

Looks pretty cut and dry to me. Even with a non shooter and unwilling shooter like Wade starting at the 3, they were contributing to Cavalanches again as if Wade was Markkanen next to them.

I think ball and bodies moving on the perimeter is the answer and it flies directly in the face of how Donovan and Caris prefer to play the game on offense.

I can’t understand why we’re not seeing eye to eye, because I’m pretty sure we’re actually agreeing/saying a similar thing.

I completely acknowledged they and the offense looked great in that three game stretch you’re referencing that Mitchell did not play in. And the acknowledging there are roster build that they totally can work together with.

Like for example, even though I know that neither of these trades are happening, I believe they can go deep deep into the playoffs in a healthy starting lineup based around DG, Strus, Bridges or OG and the two of them.

 

[foucault87]

I thought the bigs played well today. There was some dropped passes in traffic, but their defense was solid all around. Forcing AD to create is always a good strategy and doing it into double teams was working until we went away from what was working in the 2nd half.

Mitchell was coming off an injury so some rust is expected. He is still a damn good player, but I don't think he has a PG gear. Caris Levert is a bit better as a lead guard I think because he knows the dumpoffs and laydown with PnR. Mitchell always looks to attack downhill, which would be awesome if he wasn't such a good midrange shooter and kept settling for a mediocre 38% jumper when he could run at the rim for a 56% layup and chance to draw FTs. His decision making at the end of the game was bad.

I really think we could use him WAAAAY more effectively as a decoy in those scenarios. I would love to do something like having a set with Mobley or Allen catching it in the high post and then running both DM and Strus into fake DHOs and back screens. Strus knows these sets. JBB has never thought of an offensive play with more than one action in his life so we are cooked until he gets dropped for an average HS coach.

The team looked really good before the Miami game. Most of that was DG being a true PG. On paper, we should be able to do this with Mitchell in too. While he ran a lot of iso by the end of his time in Utah, he was a pretty good offball cutter and catch and shoot guy playing with Ricky and Conely at the 1. He can do stuff offball. So can DG. But any of this sort of offensive scheme is beyond the tactics we run.

I think DM is a really good player. I do not trade him for pennies on the dollar. You need a big wing that can space and defend coming back for him (Mikal, BI?....Siakam???? ok not pascal, maybe OG) and probably a decent backup big as well. But as is, I do not think we can come close to maximizing what we have on the roster right now with the smooth brain we have running this team.

 

[Jscc]

I understand the system isn't great, but no coach is telling his guy "hey, pass this ball and then stand still."

I know this because I don't see the other guards doing that with nearly the regularity of Mitchell.

It's who he is as a player.

I see it happen with the entire roster, not just Mitchell. The offense is the ball-handler trying to iso their defender while everyone stands around to watch. DG tries to iso his guy. Everyone stands around watching him. Mobley tries to iso his guy around the elbow. Everyone stands around watching him.

We can't even utilize Strus as a motion shooter because there is very little motion in the offense. The team was ranked near last in terms of pace the past two seasons for a reason.

 

[MirORich]

Here’s another angle. The reason I’m more down on the coach than normal has nothing to do with offense. We scored 116 points even w DG out the entire second half.

Thai coach, either through scheme or buy in, is supposed to have these be a top 5-8 defense in the league

We should have been up 10-15 at the half. Giving up 70 points can not happen.

 

[foucault87]

Here’s another angle. The reason I’m more down on the coach than normal has nothing to do with offense. We scored 116 points even w DG out the entire second half.

Thai coach, either through scheme or buy in, is supposed to have these be a top 5-8 defense in the league

We should have been up 10-15 at the half. Giving up 70 points can not happen.

I'm not sure what's going on with the D but JBB has traditionally actually been quite good there. Obviously we were number 1 last year and top 5ish the year before. In the covid season, we were running a very different looking top 10 built around LNJ/Drummond. Between this and player management, these are the two things I expect JBB to be able to do well.

The flailing D is worrisome. And you can't convince me that giving Strus most of Okoros mins and Niang most of Wade's from last year is the cause.