2023-24 Season | Game #16 | Lakers @ Cavs | Nov. 25, 2023 | 7:30 p.m.

[MirORich]

I'm not sure what's going on with the D but JBB has traditionally actually been quite good there. Obviously we were number 1 last year and top 5ish the year before. In the covid season, we were running a very different looking top 10 built around LNJ/Drummond. Between this and player management, these are the two things I expect JBB to be able to do well.

The flailing D is worrisome. And you can't convince me that giving Strus most of Okoros mins and Niang most of Wade's from last year is the cause.

Yeah all around perfect in every facet coaches are mostly a thing of myth but every coach is supposed to have at least 2-3 strong points that they hang their hat on. And if those things start to regress without correction, then you move on.

The critical issue though is beyond the scope and responsibility of this board and that is timing.

What kind of timescale does an organization give a coach to correct the refashions that may be happening in their string areas and to continue to try and progress the other areas as well.

Although he’s been quiet in the last few years due to family tragedy and his own major health issues, Dan Gilbert is not historically known as a very patient owner

 

[foucault87]

Yeah all around perfect in every facet coaches are mostly a thing of myth but every coach is supposed to have at least 2-3 strong points that they hang their hat on. And if those things start to regress without correction, then you move on.

The critical issue though is beyond the scope and responsibility of this board and that is timing.

What kind of timescale does an organization give a coach to correct the refashions that may be happening in their string areas and to continue to try and progress the other areas as well.

Although he’s been quiet in the last few years due to family tragedy and his own major health issues, Dan Gilbert is not historically known as a very patient owner

Personally I wanted him gone like two years ago, but I do think it's gotten to the point where his (many) deficiencies are very obvious. I would be fine to ride out the year with Walton or Joerger then make a play for someone like Bud or Jordi in the offseason

 

[Rich]

Our 3 point defense is right at the bottom the league. Great at protecting the rim, but 3 point defense is lacking.

I do think small guys at every perimeter position plays a role in that. They just can't recover and contest the way a bigger player can and actually bother a shot.

THere's scheme issues there too, as well as playing two bigs whose natural instinct is to protect the rim and sometimes overhelp in doing that.

Trying to play at a faster pace as well is gonna lead to a lesser ranked defense, generally, because you're gonna play less in the half-court where defense excels vs the open court where offense excels.

 

[buzzdog]

I agree. You're saying the onus is on bad coaching trying to force him to be a PG

Yes

Donovan's approach to the game needs to be harnessed and needs to be utilized within a system and with rotations that limit his blindspots and allow him to play to his strengths (tunnel vision scorer who wont be denied when he wants to score).

It's tunnel vision. If used correctly, he can get you a bucket because he's wired to do so like a cyborg. But that same tunnel vision is a curse and completely limits the other 4 players if you ask him to run the offense from the top of the key and set tempo and pace to keep a defense on their heels.

Example

I'm doing this from memory but about halfway through the quarter, it was Donovan, Okoro, Strus and the towers and the game was tied and we had a full shot clock. Donovan brought the ball up feigned a pass into a big in the midpost and automatically went to pass to Strus on the left wing. He picked up his dribble and Allen wasnt even at the post yet and then he half heartedly flipped it over to Strus without accounting for his defender or surveying to see if any of our other players were in a spot to attack before the Lakers were set.

Reeves easily recovered and picked it off. I want to say Okoro was streaking up the right wing with a head full of steam as well, a much better option.

The gist of that exercise is that he's programmed to score and he's programmed to create in isolation. Not run an offense and not survey a floor, control tempo and put other players in position to attack to their strengths.

I believe that is a limitation that needs to be brought to his attention irregardless of the coaching but then good coaching should limit him initiating the offense as much as possible as well.

All legit and valid observations and criticisms. DM knows how to attack to score, or attack to dish. but he doesn't see the floor the way Lebron or other elite point guards do, not by a long shot.

Unfortunately I've seen Darius make some of the same boneheaded decisions and ill advised passes you point out from Donovan. The difference is we've all seen Garland succeed at controlling pace and facilitate good offensive flow so we know he can do it when he's on his game. Mitchell succeeds more by just taking over and scoring, or assisting when the defense tries to collapse on him.

I think we need more point guard depth and it's good to see CPJ stepping up into the role. Unfortunately it will take JBB time to trust him unless his hand is forced by injuries as it already has been to give CPJ even these first chances he's gotten.

I think we're going to need Ty Jerome to get back and perform the role as well with Mitchell and Garland limping their way through and trying to recover without ever really getting enough time before they rush back prematurely.

I get pissed when I read the avalanche of comments and mouth breather posts saying Mitchell sucks, get rid of Mitchell, and so on so I respond to defend what basketball talent we do have on the roster. Just how many games has this team played with all the players available this season anyhow, it hasn't been very many. but people draw their opinions and conclusions from small sample sizes. Like you I don't have confidence that JBB can figure out any of this, or lead the this group where they need to go. I need to see DG and DM play a significant number of games together before I can make any conclusions though. It's been hit or miss with one or the other all season so far.

 

[MirORich]

Our 3 point defense is right at the bottom the league. Great at protecting the rim, but 3 point defense is lacking.

I do think small guys at every perimeter position plays a role in that. They just can't recover and contest the way a bigger player can and actually bother a shot.

THere's scheme issues there too, as well as playing two bigs whose natural instinct is to protect the rim and sometimes overhelp in doing that.

Trying to play at a faster pace as well is gonna lead to a lesser ranked defense, generally, because you're gonna play less in the half-court where defense excels vs the open court where offense excels.

All good points

SAS, also playing two bigs(Wemby/Collins) is 4th worst in the league at opponents 3P% (and was last place at it last year as well)

But somehow Minnesota, playing Gobert and KAT is currently #3

Scheme is not always just as simple as a good coach can automatically get any roster to be good at defending the 3P line though.

It was surprising to see that amongst the current 7 worst teams in Opponents 3P% you have teams coached be Spoelstra, Carlisle, Quinn Snyder, and Popovich

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

The good:

1. Mobley and Allen are really getting in sync on the interior passing. It's getting better week by week. Tonight they combined to go 17-for-24 from the field with 39 points, 20 rebounds, 9 assists (!), and 7 steals. Allen in particular is really playing well - he had 21 pts, 14 rebs, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 2 blocks tonight and has had several strong games recently against guys like Jokic and Embiid.

2. LeVert had 8 assists in 26 minutes to lead the team.

3. Porter came off the bench to contribute 11 points in 17 minutes on 5-for-7 from the field, and he created his own shot every time.

The bad:

1. Garland got whacked in the head yet again and was out the second half.

2. Mitchell was 4-for-18 from the field and missed a critical mid-range jumper with the Cavs down by 2 in the final minute. However, he was probably rusty from not having played in 10 days. And he did manage to get to the line 13 times, making 12.

3. Niang was 3-for-9 on 3's and missed some wide open 3's in a 6-point loss.

This could have easily been a win if Niang didn't miss some open 3's and Mitchell made more than 4 of 18 shots. But there was a lot to like, especially the synergy between Allen and Mobley and the continuing emergence of Porter as a quality replacement for Ricky Rubio.

In the end we didn't have an answer for LeBron and AD. Their supporting cast was just good enough, especially three-man bench of Wood, Hayes, and Reaves, who combined to shoot 14-for-20 from the field for 38 points. I said in the preview the Cavs needed to make hay when LeBron was on the bench, but the Lakers' reserves make sure that didn't happen. The Cavs were actually outscored by 4 points when LeBron was out.

If Mitchell's shot was on we win this one easily, but he missed 14 of 18 shots and that was the killer, along with Niang's disappointing 3-point shooting.

 

[amil99]

The problem with our defense is we always ran(under Pennywise) a stupid outdated defense where we purposely gave up open 3s when every modern NBA player WANTS to take 3s, even the bigs. The issue was in years past players were intimidated to come into the paint because of the 2 7footers. Now the real issue is we still give up open 3s(which are make or miss), but now teams have realized that they can attack Mobley/JA because despite their height they are relatively weak. The jury is out and now players, even small guards realize all you have to do is go into their chest or shove/elbow(offensive foul) and that they can be had. Giving up open 3s is a bad thing but it’s a make or miss league, but when you already are bad at defending them these layup lines are back breaking

 

[Comeback kid]

Just a couple box outs of Anthony Davis gives the Cavs a win. Or not seeing man and ball on weak side defense. But no it’s always the problem that we didn’t score enough points! Smh

 

[KilgoreTrout]

LeBron won the GOAT debate in 2016 in my mind, but secured it somewhere in the 2018-20. I dont really see how any die hard fans can make the argument against him now. No all time great, even KAJ could maintain this level of play this long. Even across sports (that arent golf or chess) its a handful of guys that were impact players in year 1 and year 21. Off the top of my head its Brady, James, Tendulkar, and the Tennis Big 3. He is in absolutely rarefied air across all sports and certainly in basketball. The man is a clear top 10 player at the age of 39 and we are acting like he is washed because he was what...top 5 for 18 years and a top 1 for most of those 18? Just incredible. We are all witnesses. #KidFromAkron

He defeated a curse. There is no doubt.

 

[Pierre Pan]

The good:

1. Mobley and Allen are really getting in sync on the interior passing. It's getting better week by week. Tonight they combined to go 17-for-24 from the field with 39 points, 20 rebounds, 9 assists (!), and 7 steals. Allen in particular is really playing well - he had 21 pts, 14 rebs, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 2 blocks tonight and has had several strong games recently against guys like Jokic and Embiid.

2. LeVert had 8 assists in 26 minutes to lead the team.

3. Porter came off the bench to contribute 11 points in 17 minutes on 5-for-7 from the field, and he created his own shot every time.

The bad:

1. Garland got whacked in the head yet again and was out the second half.

2. Mitchell was 4-for-18 from the field and missed a critical mid-range jumper with the Cavs down by 2 in the final minute. However, he was probably rusty from not having played in 10 days. And he did manage to get to the line 13 times, making 12.

3. Niang was 3-for-9 on 3's and missed some wide open 3's in a 6-point loss.

This could have easily been a win if Niang didn't miss some open 3's and Mitchell made more than 4 of 18 shots. But there was a lot to like, especially the synergy between Allen and Mobley and the continuing emergence of Porter as a quality replacement for Ricky Rubio.

In the end we didn't have an answer for LeBron and AD. Their supporting cast was just good enough, especially three-man bench of Wood, Hayes, and Reaves, who combined to shoot 14-for-20 from the field for 38 points. I said in the preview the Cavs needed to make hay when LeBron was on the bench, but the Lakers' reserves make sure that didn't happen. The Cavs were actually outscored by 4 points when LeBron was out.

If Mitchell's shot was on we win this one easily, but he missed 14 of 18 shots and that was the killer, along with Niang's disappointing 3-point shooting.

And to add fuel to the fire, not only was Mitchell 4 for 18 from the field, but he was 1 for 10 in the 2nd half and scored a whopping 6 points, all while monopolizing play; in fact, I specifically mentioned earlier one sequence / fast break where he actually went 1 on 5 and attempted to drive to the basket and predictably didn’t score.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

And to add fuel to the fire, not only was Mitchell 4 for 18 from the field, but he was 1 for 10 in the 2nd half and scored a whopping 6 points, all while monopolizing play; in fact, I specifically mentioned earlier one sequence / fast break where he actually went 1 on 5 and attempted to drive to the basket and predictably didn’t score.

“I feel like I let the guys down a little bit, especially late. I just have to be better in that instance. Ultimately, I can’t shoot like that. It’s on me. That’s my job and I didn’t do it." - Donovan Mitchell

Wrong. It's not your job to win the game by yourself. Mitchell had not played in 10 days and his legs were cramping but he still insisted on taking every shot in the final minute. No passing, no running an offense, it was Donovan going 1-on-5 and taking the shot. I get that he's the highest paid Cavalier and an All-Star. But that doesn't mean he has to take every shot down the stretch, especially when he's still working himself into game shape after missing 10 days.

I respect his willingness to put the game in his hands and take the big shots. But sometimes he needs to recognize that's not in the best interest of the team.