2023 Season | Series #47 | Guardians @ Giants | Sep. 10-12, 2023

[BimboColesHair]

What's your definition of "extended look" though, that is very much the question. You can keep laughing away at my posts (very mature btw), but you're not tackling any of my arguments.

This already is very much an extended look that many never even get in MLB. If he gets another half season because an 80 wRc+ is tease enough, then we're already in the extended look 2.0 phase. The most likely scenario is that he continues to be an 80ish wRc+ hitter, and then? Keep extending that look? Players like Arias (much like Urshela) may need a couple of years to fully blossom. Are we willing to go through a couple of bad years and jettison all other MIF in the process?

This is the question, and one you and the FO keep punting down the line. The "he has done enough to keep looking" argument is a valid one in a vacuum, but that's not the situation here.

And we're not even discussing who helps most to win now, since we're supposed to aim for the postseason next year.

I'd at least hope they go into ST with an open competition since Arias simply hasn't captured this opportunity (and simply hasn't improved since Amed left, which was the big argument then) , so why hand it to him again?

More than 152 PAs.

You yourself are contexting Rocchio's current poor MLB sample size due to an inconsistent role, yet you aren't doing the same for Arias. This is why people are getting frustrated with you.

Or do you think him bouncing from RF to 1B to 3B to SS game to game or just platooning him against LHP like we did earlier this season is the same as him getting an extended look at just SS? If so, I would love to breakdown how wrong that is.

 

[mopete12]

I think that once we locked Gimenez in to 2B for 2023, that ship sailed.

I'm assuming he's our 2B for this contention window until I hear otherwise.

It might not be optimal, but I would find it disappointing to pigeon hole Gimenez as a 2B when he just turned 25. Especially when we know he is a good SS.

 

[Derek]

What's your definition of "extended look" though, that is very much the question. You can keep laughing away at my posts (very mature btw), but you're not tackling any of my arguments.

More than the 200 PA he’ll get in the starting role by season’s end.

I’m only laughing because I think it’s clear that you just don’t like Arias and you never wanted him to get an opportunity at all.

This already is very much an extended look that many never even get in MLB. If he gets another half season because an 80 wRc+ is tease enough, then we're already in the extended look 2.0 phase. The most likely scenario is that he continues to be an 80ish wRc+ hitter, and then? Keep extending that look? Players like Arias (much like Urshela) may need a couple of years to fully blossom. Are we willing to go through a couple of bad years and jettison all other MIF in the process?

No, I flat out said I’d only give him until June next year. That’s not half the season. If he’s scuffling and they keep trotting him out there in an everyday role until midseason, I’d certainly throw criticism their way.

This is the question, and one you and the FO keep punting down the line. The "he has done enough to keep looking" argument is a valid one in a vacuum, but that's not the situation here.

It is the situation, in my opinion.

And we're not even discussing who helps most to win now, since we're supposed to aim for the postseason next year.

I think the better player will help us win the most. I think Arias has as good of a chance as anybody at being the right guy.

I'd at least hope they go into ST with an open competition since Arias simply hasn't captured this opportunity (and simply hasn't improved since Amed left, which was the big argument then) , so why hand it to him again?

I don’t really believe in ST competitions because I place no value on ST production.

However, I trust the coaching staff and FO to track his off-season progress, and if they lose confidence in him because they’re not seeing the growth, and other guys blow them away, I won’t complain if they go another direction.

 

[Gson]

It might not be optimal, but I would find it disappointing to pigeon hole Gimenez as a 2B when he just turned 25. Especially when we know he is a good SS.

He may be a good SS but, he's a GREAT 2B.. and where he should stay.. imho

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Arias is hitting .280/.812 in 182 AB's against right-handed pitching. His OBP is .345. That's more than good enough to be a starting SS for a winning team. Maybe that's not a large enough sample to be confident he'll continue to do that, but it's encouraging.

The problem is he's hitting .087 against lefties, who he should be hitting BETTER than he's hitting righties. It seems to me that if he can fix that problem he would be a borderline All-Star.

He also has a problem hitting high fastballs. Pitchers are relentlessly attacking him with high heat and getting tons of swings and misses whether the pitch is above the zone or right at the top. He needs to figure out how to counter that, starting by getting better at laying off the ones that are too high and fouling off the ones that are in the zone, or better yet, squaring up a few to discourage pitchers from going there.

The high ground ball rate is unfortunate, but if he can hit those balls hard like Yandy Diaz (who I've compared him to since he hits oppo a lot with a high exit velo), he'll get a lot of hits.

Bottom line is he has some intriguing skills but it's too early to tell what he'll become.

 

[Tondo]

More than 152 PAs.

You yourself are contexting Rocchio's current poor MLB sample size due to an inconsistent role, yet you aren't doing the same for Arias. This is why people are getting frustrated with you.

Or do you think him bouncing from RF to 1B to 3B to SS game to game or just platooning him against LHP like we did earlier this season is the same as him getting an extended look at just SS? If so, I would love to breakdown how wrong that is.

Weren't you the one with "reading comprehension"? Go back and look what I wrote about that...

And you have moved goalposts, my friend. Your argument pre Amed trade was Arias needs regular reps to improve. Now 150+ PA in he hasn't and now it's just "he needs more reps"...

 

[33Y0]

Weren't you the one with "reading comprehension"? Go back and look what I wrote about that...

And you have moved goalposts, my friend. Your argument pre Amed trade was Arias needs regular reps to improve. Now 150+ PA in he hasn't and now it's just "he needs more reps"...

150 PA is still a mighty small sample size, are you serious?

 

[BimboColesHair]

150 PA is still a mighty small sample size, are you serious?

It's more than enough PAs for someone who doesn't like him, like tondo. He thinks we are just wasting time, which he could be right.

It is not enough in reality though. Would like to see him get 400-500 PAs in the role and see where he is trending at that point. As Derek has been saying, he'll reach that mark by June of 2024.

 

[Criznit]

Arias is obviously a very polarizing player... At this point him and Noel (HM - Valera) look like the two biggest boom/bust players on the 40 man.

I am fine with grinding up Arias into a worthless powder or into a high quality bratwurst.

Try to play him everyday until the 2024 All-Star break. Hopefully by then he's cemented himself as the guy or we prepare him for the Friday night catapult promotion.

Management will be different next year, and it could even end up being quite a major shakeup. So who knows how that will factor into the team building philosophy.

 

[Derek]

150 PA is still a mighty small sample size, are you serious?

It’s quite small.

10 days ago, across 116 PA post-Rosario, his line was .279/.310/.468.

If a tough week can drop your OPS 100 points, the sample probably isn’t worthwhile.

 

[mopete12]

He may be a good SS but, he's a GREAT 2B.. and where he should stay.. imho

Gimenez’s defensive floor at SS is good and he is likely well above average based on his prospect projections and his play at SS in 2020 and 2021. Freeman has basically no shot at being a great defensive SS. Rocchio’s defensive projections have taken a hit the last year or two and his defensive ceiling is essentially Gimenez.

I would rather have a good to great defensive SS with a solid 2B than a great 2B with an average SS.

 

[CDAV45]

Comparing Arias/Rocchio age/level, if it relegates Rocchio (or Freeman) to AAA, that's already missing him out on ML time Arias got, as he was on the 26 all year. For me, that crosses the line of first shot to commitment.

The believers like to talk about Arias' upside and age, but how long are you willing to wait for it? The downside is a Jake Bauers situation, where you give up on a Yandy for him, because of misconstrued ceiling/floor visions.

I'd argue that Rocchio and some of those other MIF have a similar ceiling (and much more likely to get there) as Arias, but with a much safer floor.

If Arias is the Race car that reaches 200mph sometimes, but sputters around 100 often, I'd prefer the steady 160mph car that tops out at 180.

Why waste the time trying to fix that car to run 180 to 200 consistently, when you have a couple of ready made 160s in the garage?

And most importantly, when is the tipping point of switching up?

"Believers" is a terribly inaccurate description. Recognizers is a better description. I recognize the immense talent Arias possesses. I recognize that he has some serious issues to improve upon. I recognize that he is only 23 and that there have been a few obstacles/injuries that have likely stalled his development. I'll be a "believer" when I see it. You are trying to be a predictor and disregarding the actual factors by doing so. You can play the odds and it's likely that what you're predicting will be the outcome in the end. How is that beneficial? Does that somehow make you right?

You can argue all you want that Rocchio and some of the other MIF have a similar ceiling, but you'd be wrong in doing so and it's exactly why you're seeing Arias at SS for now. He's easily recognized as the superior talent among the SS candidates by those that don't have blinders on.

You have no steady 160 mph cars. The best you have is an electric scooter at this time who has never demonstrated much outside the ability to make consistent contact. You have a car in Columbus that we thought could do 160 steadily, but he's sputtering and struggling to cruise at 100.

If you're going to continually complain about Arias, when are you going to start showing disregard for Gimenez? Freeman and Rocchio better options than he is as well?

Who knows when they'll be ready to move on from Arias. Here's a better way to ask what you're wanting to know. At what point in time/age do you give up on an incredible talent? It sure as fuck isn't 23 and I doubt it's 24 either. Maybe it's 25 which means Gimenez is fucked and won't return next season after an abysmal offensive showing this season accumulatively speaking. Should we ignore the talent he has as well and look to the next option?

 

[sportscoach]

Right now, regardless of his role, Arias is on the 24 roster either as a SS or as an utility guy...

Rocchio can take away his starting spot, but Arias is young and has a spot going into next season... Let's see if he can keep that starting SS spot in camp...

 

[Gson]

Gimenez’s defensive floor at SS is good and he is likely well above average based on his prospect projections and his play at SS in 2020 and 2021. Freeman has basically no shot at being a great defensive SS. Rocchio’s defensive projections have taken a hit the last year or two and his defensive ceiling is essentially Gimenez.

I would rather have a good to great defensive SS with a solid 2B than a great 2B with an average SS.

I guess that's where we'll differ.. Both Rocchio and Arias project as great defensive SS's.. (whoever said/convinced you that either Arias' or Rocchio's defensive prowess at SS have taken a hit.. need to learn what great defensive play really is) Gimenez is already a great 2B.. So, that's the middle infield of the future..

 

[Otsego Mar]

Has it ever been discussed to try Arias in RF in a more permanent role?

At the least it would give Freeman/Rocchio more MiF opportunity.