A Thread About Women

[David.]

Women go into science careers more often in countries without gender equality


https://arstechnica.com/science/201...-science-careers-even-when-theyre-good-at-it/

 

[Whittaker]

"Would a nursing program fall under the STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) umbrella? Or are nursing and similar fields kind of their own thing?
The U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), for instance, includes nursing in its list of STEM fields as, at minimum, STEM-adjacent--but the Department of Commerce's Economics and Statistics Administration does not."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahh...ing-a-stem-field-does-it-matter/#7dfa4cff5b47
____________________________

You definitely want your nurse anesthetists(CRNA) to have a solid understanding of math, science and technology.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

"Would a nursing program fall under the STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) umbrella? Or are nursing and similar fields kind of their own thing?
The U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), for instance, includes nursing in its list of STEM fields as, at minimum, STEM-adjacent--but the Department of Commerce's Economics and Statistics Administration does not."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahh...ing-a-stem-field-does-it-matter/#7dfa4cff5b47
____________________________

You definitely want your nurse anesthetists(CRNA) to have a solid understanding of math, science and technology.

CRNA's make big bucks. My stepdaughter is an RN, and is starting her CRNA work next year.

 

[David.]

Study uncovers gender gap in earnings of Uber drivers

https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2018/02/08/study-uncovers-gender-gap-earnings-uber-drivers

UChicago economists helped lead a study that found men working for the ride-sharing platform Uber earned about 7 percent more per hour than women.

• Male drivers work more: 17.98 hours a week compared to 12.82 a week for women. This gives men an edge in learning how to choose potential passengers based on how far the driver has to travel to pick them up, the distance to the intended destination and other factors that can influence pay. The researchers found that, until about their 2,500th trip, drivers are learning those skills can maximize pay. A fully experienced driver earns about $3 more an hour than a driver with 500 or fewer trips.
• Men drive 2.2 percent faster than women working for Uber. That increases the number of trips they can fit into the hours they work. Previous research backs up a higher degree of risk tolerance among men than women.

 

[gourimoko]

Study uncovers gender gap in earnings of Uber drivers

https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2018/02/08/study-uncovers-gender-gap-earnings-uber-drivers

Study speaks more to social constraints of dealing with randos in a confined space like a car (they even mention this as being the biggest component to the difference); rather than the concept of an earnings gap in itself.

I would be hesitant to take the findings here out of that context in any attempt to speak to the larger issue of wage disparity across genders across fields.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Study speaks more to social constraints of dealing with randos in a confined space like a car (they even mention this as being the biggest component to the difference); rather than the concept of an earnings gap in itself.

I would be hesitant to take the findings here out of that context in any attempt to speak to the larger issue of wage disparity across genders across fields.

I think we should be hesitant to make any generalizations at all across fields. Going individual job by individual job is the only way to ensure that you're actually comparing apples to apples, and isolating gender as the key variable rather than some other factor.

The "71 cents on the dollar" or whatever the figure happens to be is, is worthless.

 

[gourimoko]

I think we should be hesitant to make any generalizations at all across fields. Going individual job by individual job is the only way to ensure that you're actually comparing apples to apples, and isolating gender as the key variable rather than some other factor.

Well, sure I agree ... But it goes without saying that the aforementioned study doesn't work in a generalized sense when discussing the pay gap; for example, it's incomparable for analyzing the pay gap in STEM fields.

The "71 cents on the dollar" or whatever the figure happens to be is, is worthless.

Not sure if it's 71 cents or 75 cents, but for example, in STEM fields it's 83 cents, and when adjusting for field-preference and other non-sociological factors, it's 89 cents.

Whereas in the aforementioned study, there is almost no gap whatsoever when adjusting for job preference (keep in mind, each ride is a freelance job); and that's apparent given the Uber app is obviously non-discriminatory (not when counting tips).

So that's why I want to make sure that we aren't reading that article and trying to derive a conclusion about the larger issue of pay inequity. Simply because men have a tendency of driving faster than women and being less risk averse while operating an Uber, it's not reasonable or scientific to assume that observation could be extrapolated would somehow translate in a generalized sense across fields or even be representative on the whole of the workforce.

 

[David.]

Well, sure I agree ... But it goes without saying that the aforementioned study doesn't work in a generalized sense when discussing the pay gap; for example, it's incomparable for analyzing the pay gap in STEM fields.



Not sure if it's 71 cents or 75 cents, but for example, in STEM fields it's 83 cents, and when adjusting for field-preference and other non-sociological factors, it's 89 cents.

Whereas in the aforementioned study, there is almost no gap whatsoever when adjusting for job preference (keep in mind, each ride is a freelance job); and that's apparent given the Uber app is obviously non-discriminatory (not when counting tips).

So that's why I want to make sure that we aren't reading that article and trying to derive a conclusion about the larger issue of pay inequity. Simply because men have a tendency of driving faster than women and being less risk averse while operating an Uber, it's not reasonable or scientific to assume that observation could be extrapolated would somehow translate in a generalized sense across fields or even be representative on the whole of the workforce.

What is your opinion in regards to trait industriousness which is essentially how hard working someone is and the general differences in men and women?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/


http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161011-do-men-and-women-really-have-different-personalities


"It’s almost certainly true that these social forces play a part. But all three large, cross-cultural studies by Costa, McCrae and others actually found men and women differed in average personality more in more developed and gender-egalitarian cultures, such as in Europe and America than in cultures in Asia and Africa where there is less gender equality (as measured by such things as women’s literacy and life expectancy)."

"And yet, while diminished, the implicit measure still revealed statistically significant differences in average personality between men and women, especially in relation to women scoring higher on Neuroticism and Agreeableness"

"Adding to the picture, other research has shown that the genders begin to differ in personality very early in life. For example, one study published in 2013 looked at ratings of the temperament of 357 pairs of twins made when they were three-years-old. The boys were rated as more active, on average, than the girls, while the girls were rated as more shy and as having more control over their attention and behaviour."

 

[Whittaker]

A quick shoutout @David in case the opportunity vanishes.
On a board with several excellent minds, yours strikes me as especially interesting, open and deep.
Reading has been enjoyable.

 

[David.]

A quick shoutout @David in case the opportunity vanishes.
On a board with several excellent minds, yours strikes me as especially i nteresting, open and deep.
Reading has been enjoyable.

Thanks man. I really never stop, I listen to about ten hours of audiobooks a day.. theres wisdom in everything if you look for it. And generally id like to spend as little time being wrong as possible
Anyways, thanks. Made my day

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Well, sure I agree ... But it goes without saying that the aforementioned study doesn't work in a generalized sense when discussing the pay gap; for example, it's incomparable for analyzing the pay gap in STEM fields.



Not sure if it's 71 cents or 75 cents, but for example, in STEM fields it's 83 cents, and when adjusting for field-preference and other non-sociological factors, it's 89 cents.

Whereas in the aforementioned study, there is almost no gap whatsoever when adjusting for job preference (keep in mind, each ride is a freelance job); and that's apparent given the Uber app is obviously non-discriminatory (not when counting tips).

So that's why I want to make sure that we aren't reading that article and trying to derive a conclusion about the larger issue of pay inequity. Simply because men have a tendency of driving faster than women and being less risk averse while operating an Uber, it's not reasonable or scientific to assume that observation could be extrapolated would somehow translate in a generalized sense across fields or even be representative on the whole of the workforce.

My point was that not only each job field, but each particular job, is usually sufficiently unique that there is no way to correctly analyze whether or not gender is playing an impact except on the individual job level.

It often gets overlooked that pay discrimination on the basis of gender has been illegal for more than 50 years, and you can bring a lawsuit in which your attorneys fees get paid by the other side, or on a contingency basis where you pay essentially nothing. If a woman really believes "I'm getting paid less because I'm a woman", then she should point to the guy she believes is doing the same thing but getting more money, and file a an Equal Pay Act or similar lawsuit.

 

[gourimoko]

My point was that not only each job field, but each particular job, is usually sufficiently unique that there is no way to correctly analyze whether or not gender is playing an impact except on the individual job level.

I think the broad averages are just that, averages. They describe the overall state that women are paid less than men, across the board; for any number of both legitimate and illegitimate reasons. So when someone says "women get paid 75 cents on the dollar for the same work as a man," that is worth noting, and that lost quarter wage is not usually explainable.

So I would argue that you can correctly analyze the problem, it's just not something you can do easily and requires a fairly comprehensive analysis.

It often gets overlooked that pay discrimination on the basis of gender has been illegal for more than 50 years, and you can bring a lawsuit in which your attorneys fees get paid by the other side, or on a contingency basis where you pay essentially nothing. If a woman really believes "I'm getting paid less because I'm a woman", then she should point to the guy she believes is doing the same thing but getting more money, and file a an Equal Pay Act or similar lawsuit.

I don't think the issue is direct, explicit discrimination, but instead discrimination as a result of implicit bias.

 

[gourimoko]

What is your opinion in regards to trait industriousness which is essentially how hard working someone is and the general differences in men and women?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/


http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161011-do-men-and-women-really-have-different-personalities


"It’s almost certainly true that these social forces play a part. But all three large, cross-cultural studies by Costa, McCrae and others actually found men and women differed in average personality more in more developed and gender-egalitarian cultures, such as in Europe and America than in cultures in Asia and Africa where there is less gender equality (as measured by such things as women’s literacy and life expectancy)."

"And yet, while diminished, the implicit measure still revealed statistically significant differences in average personality between men and women, especially in relation to women scoring higher on Neuroticism and Agreeableness"

"Adding to the picture, other research has shown that the genders begin to differ in personality very early in life. For example, one study published in 2013 looked at ratings of the temperament of 357 pairs of twins made when they were three-years-old. The boys were rated as more active, on average, than the girls, while the girls were rated as more shy and as having more control over their attention and behaviour."

Will respond to this in detail later today once I have time to go through the data you linked.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

What a classic thread! Insightful to read men's thoughts prior to MeToo, and in a forum where there are very few women, so the discussion is more honest without the felt need to impress or appease the opposite sex.

As a woman on the autism spectrum who's also really into sports, and who was raised in an easygoing family that just never discussed gender issues much at all, I was blissfully oblivious to a lot of gender stereotypes growing up. I had no idea, for example, that teenage girls shouldn't go up to a boy they like in class and tell them they're hot. I got labeled a bad thing for this once...lol. And in my very literal brain, I was perplexed I got labeled this bad thing, because I just said the guy was hot...I didn't actually sleep with him or anything.

In all my 37 years, I've never been taken advantage of. It's hard to relate to other women's experiences and stories, and the older I get, the more prominent this becomes.

In my twenties, I did become acquainted with some very ultraconservative people, however, who were big on gender roles. My own parents never taught that women shouldn't work, shouldn't like sports, and should stay at home to raise children. But this was largely what was taught in this circle. I started to have guilt over jobs, working, and the like. My husband (then-fiance) is more leftist than I am, so he hated this group's influence, but they spoke with a type of Biblical authority, so it left impression on me as a person of faith.

I'm still not entirely sure what my gender views are. But I was glad that I have a boy, because expectations are clearer for boys than for girls. He won't have to deal with guilt for working, won't be labeled a slut for liking girls, and can like sports without it being seen as odd. If he has autism, like me, it will be more expected because he's a boy, and the tactlessness, lack of agreeableness, etc. won't be seen as atypical. Everything will be so much more clear cut than if I'd had a girl. And since I'm a SAHM now, no more guilt over having a part time job. I know I'm doing something that is respected and historical in most circles. Nothing feminist or man-hating about being a SAHM.

 

[letgocavs]

I think relationships were better in the 50s, 60s between men and women. There was nothing wrong with women staying at home taking care of the house and family. Then government turned men and women into competing against one another and now women are fighting this impossible battle of being stronger than men. And want to be men. Who's watching and raising the kids with both parents working 60 hours a week?