Brian Windhorst updated podcast 5/19/10 (post #355)

[Wulfgar1224]

Do not judge the signings with the results that it produced. Transport yourself back to the situation we are in when Ferry made those signings. If Ferry stuck with his "cap flexibility" BS then we would lose LeBron. Remember that we don't have decent draft picks the time Ferry took over. The only way to entice LeBron to stay was those signings. Jones and Hughes just came off with career numbers. Do you really think that they will turn out the way they did? Oh, just a note, we went to the NBA finals with the very same players that Danny Ferry signed.

I've never seen it that way. I don't believe that the signings of Hughes, Yell, et. al convinced LeBron to stay in Cleveland. Geez, it was obvious very quickly that Hughes was a bad fit. I don't think LeBron ever had any intention of leaving after 2006. He wanted to be part of something long-lasting and special here in Cleveland. After that summer, though, the Cavs flexibility was badly damaged. Hughes lead to Wallace who lead to Shaq. Those moves weren't good enough. It doesn't really matter if anyone could've predicted that the signings would be so bad. They were and Ferry should be held accountable for that.

Honestly, though what matters is where the Cavs are now. Sadly, there just aren't a lot of basketball reasons for LeBron to stay. The Cavs have Andy, Mo, JJ, Boobie, Jamison, and Moon signed past next season. That just isn't a championship type core. None of those players will step up if LeBron has an off game in the postseason. The real question is how can the Cavs get better? It won't happen in the draft. They don't have the cap space to sign free agents. The only option that they have is to continue to flip expirings for veteran players like they did for Shaq, Mo, and Antawn. That really isn't a way to build something long lasting though. There is too much turnover and it reeks of desperation. The Cavs need young talent to develop with LeBron in order to build something that lasts. A glaring example of the Cavs haphazard way of doing things is the way that they treated JJ. LeBron tried to take him under his wing and develop him. After starting 70+ games, the Cavs threw him under the bus in the playoffs to appease Shaq. Why would Lebron think that they are trying to build something that lasts? They just seem to desperately be flipping expirings in the hope that something sticks.

 

[NerdoMcEinstein]

Yeah, I know what you said, I can read.

How exactly is surrounding him with shooters a lack of a plan?

If you want to argue that he chose the wrong plan, that's another issue, but there was obviously a plan.

Shooters, huh?

Two old guys coming off career years....Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall....they were the only two "shooters" on the roster.

Both of whom were, at their BEST, below average defenders....and they paired them with a head coach with limited offensive knowledge(self-admitted).

Then they grabbed Hughes, also coming off a career year in the last year of his contract (surprise!) who flourished in Eddie Jordan's motion offense and plopped him into Mike Brown's "stagnation" offense.

Hughes and Eric Snow in the backcourt for LeBron....what could go wrong?

What was the plan? To blow any cap flexibility the Cavs might have over the next half a decade with mediocre, overpaid, aging players?

 

[NerdoMcEinstein]

yeah because there was no pressure for a team with lebron james to be competing for a playoff birth and starting to become a winning franchise, i'm sure the cavs fans would ahve been happy with new ownership saying 'hey come buy our tickets, but we dont care about winning"

presti is in a very different situation

Yeah...and there's no pressure on Presti to keep his talented young star with his small market franchise? Get real...

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Yeah...and there's no pressure on Presti to keep his talented young star with his small market franchise? Get real...

Presti had the luxury of having the 5th pick in the Durant draft(trading Ray Allen whom he inherited)and the 4th pick in the following draft.

He has drafted well, but he has also inherited a much better situation. Like I said, let's say Ferry gets LeBron, has the 5th pick in the same draft that LeBron was out of, has the 4th pick the following year, and doesn't let the Boozer debacle happen.

Our potential core?

Chris Paul
LBJ
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer

Ferry never had those opportunities, not even CLOSE.

 

[Noonan]

Presti had the luxury of having the 5th pick in the Durant draft(trading Ray Allen whom he inherited)and the 4th pick in the following draft.

You could also make the argument that OKC would still be playing if they had Ray Allen instead of Jeff Green.

Come to think of it, we might also still be playing.

 

[NerdoMcEinstein]

Do not judge the signings with the results that it produced. Transport yourself back to the situation we are in when Ferry made those signings. If Ferry stuck with his "cap flexibility" BS then we would lose LeBron. Remember that we don't have decent draft picks the time Ferry took over. The only way to entice LeBron to stay was those signings. Jones and Hughes just came off with career numbers. Do you really think that they will turn out the way they did? Oh, just a note, we went to the NBA finals with the very same players that Danny Ferry signed.

They should put an asterisk next to that Finals appearance....

The Cavs have operated "in a hurry" during this entire process because they were so afraid of losing LeBron. What they needed to do was have a plan and let LeBron know they were working to develop a young core of talent around him.

The Bulls did the same with MJ....Presti is doing the same with OKC.

Granted he was in weird position because of the previous front office's moves dealing draft picks. That doesn't make his splurge that handcuffed this organization for years the only move he could make.

 

[NerdoMcEinstein]

Presti had the luxury of having the 5th pick in the Durant draft(trading Ray Allen whom he inherited)and the 4th pick in the following draft.

He has drafted well, but he has also inherited a much better situation. Like I said, let's say Ferry gets LeBron, has the 5th pick in the same draft that LeBron was out of, has the 4th pick the following year, and doesn't let the Boozer debacle happen.

Our potential core?

Chris Paul
LBJ
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer

Ferry never had those opportunities, not even CLOSE.

Ferry had it pretty good....LeBron James and $25 million in cap room.

 

[NerdoMcEinstein]

I've never seen it that way. I don't believe that the signings of Hughes, Yell, et. al convinced LeBron to stay in Cleveland. Geez, it was obvious very quickly that Hughes was a bad fit. I don't think LeBron ever had any intention of leaving after 2006. He wanted to be part of something long-lasting and special here in Cleveland. After that summer, though, the Cavs flexibility was badly damaged. Hughes lead to Wallace who lead to Shaq. Those moves weren't good enough. It doesn't really matter if anyone could've predicted that the signings would be so bad. They were and Ferry should be held accountable for that.

Honestly, though what matters is where the Cavs are now. Sadly, there just aren't a lot of basketball reasons for LeBron to stay. The Cavs have Andy, Mo, JJ, Boobie, Jamison, and Moon signed past next season. That just isn't a championship type core. None of those players will step up if LeBron has an off game in the postseason. The real question is how can the Cavs get better? It won't happen in the draft. They don't have the cap space to sign free agents. The only option that they have is to continue to flip expirings for veteran players like they did for Shaq, Mo, and Antawn. That really isn't a way to build something long lasting though. There is too much turnover and it reeks of desperation. The Cavs need young talent to develop with LeBron in order to build something that lasts. A glaring example of the Cavs haphazard way of doing things is the way that they treated JJ. LeBron tried to take him under his wing and develop him. After starting 70+ games, the Cavs threw him under the bus in the playoffs to appease Shaq. Why would Lebron think that they are trying to build something that lasts? They just seem to desperately be flipping expirings in the hope that something sticks.

Exactly...

I can just imagine LeBron watching Flip Murray perform better for the Cavs than Hughes and think "WTF?!?!? We traded Mike freakin Wilks for this guy and we're paying Hughes how much???"

After that deal, Flip was the 3rd best player on the team behind Z and LeBron...and looked like a better fit than Hughes....who, of course, was injured....something everyone was worried about when the Cavs signed him.

They didn't even re-sign Murray....but Ferry grabbed David Wesley and Scot Pollard.

 

[MoFlo]

Shooters, huh?

Two old guys coming off career years....Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall....they were the only two "shooters" on the roster.

Both of whom were, at their BEST, below average defenders....and they paired them with a head coach with limited offensive knowledge(self-admitted).

Then they grabbed Hughes, also coming off a career year in the last year of his contract (surprise!) who flourished in Eddie Jordan's motion offense and plopped him into Mike Brown's "stagnation" offense.

Hughes and Eric Snow in the backcourt for LeBron....what could go wrong?

What was the plan? To blow any cap flexibility the Cavs might have over the next half a decade with mediocre, overpaid, aging players?

Damon Jones had just turned 29 and was a career 39% 3 point shooter when we signed him.

Donyell Marshall had just turned 32 and was a career 35% 3 point shooter, averaging 7.3 rpg for his career when we signed him.

Hardly "old guys."

Both of whom were, at their BEST, below average defenders....and they paired them with a head coach with limited offensive knowledge(self-admitted).

So, would you have him rather have gotten 2 guys who had no offensive skills, so our offense could blow even more?

Eric Snow was already here when Ferry became GM. At that point, we obviously desperately needed another scorer to pair with LeBron. He went after Ray Allen & Michael Redd (both scorers who could shoot) and struck out. We still desperately needed a scorer, so he signed Larry Hughes. Hughes was known as a scorer. We couldn't go into the next season with LeBron as the only perimeter player that could create his own shot.

Did the move end up working out? Obviously not. But at the time, it wasn't a bad signing for what we needed, which was another scorer.

IIRC, LeBron also endorsed the Hughes signing as well.

Like it or not, Marshall & Jones were shooters at the time, and that's obviously always been the plan.

 

[NarlCavs]

The Cavs in 2005 were in a totally different place than today. Ferry inherited a thin roster that was in need of immediate upgrades. They had to go out and add talent and there's always been pressure to try to win right away with and because of LeBron. Ferry also not only has lacked any high draft picks but also lacked draft picks due to the trades of the previous GM. It also needs to be remembered that previous GM had just blown 4 lottery picks prior to 2005 and if he had drafted better at least 2 of those players should have become quality rotation players that could have either helped going forward or helped provide trade assets
Cleveland has never been a hot destination for FA's and it was worse in 2005 than it is today. Hughes is actually the biggest FA to ever sign with the Cavs. As much as we complain about those signings, they did improve the team quite a bit and helped the Cavs get to the Finals 2 years late--whether it was a fluke or not. Ferry also was able to turn those players into better ones and better fits.

Considering the roster he inherited,the lack of quality trade assets he's had, and the lack of draft picks and high draft picks he's had available; I'd say ferry has done a pretty good job building a perennial winner.

I am very hopeful Ferry continues on in the Cavs front office. Whatever happens this summer I feel more comfortable going forward with Ferry and Gilbert in charge.

As far as Mike Brown and his record. I think most of us would have accepted 48 wins in each of the last 2 seasons rather than 66 and 61 wins if it meant more playoff success. Ultimately it comes down to winning in the playoffs and I still feel the talent if used properly was there to go much further this season.

 

[daddywags]

>>I don't think LeBron ever had any intention of leaving after 2006.<<

That's all well and good - but you didn't have to bet the franchise on that belief. Let's see, Dan Gilbert buys the team, replaces the GM and HC and decides to sit on $20+ million in cap space and keep the 35 win team pretty much unchanged. How well do you think THAT would have gone over with LeBron and "his team"?

"Hey, LeBron, there aren't any good free agents out there so we're just going to stick with Jeff McInnis and Jiri Welsch as our backcourt. I'm sure you'll understand. Don't worry, we have Ira Newble and Sasha Pavlovic coming off the bench."

 

[KilgoreTrout]

Why don't we just offer LeBron for Durant? It sounds like Durant doesn't care where he plays, as long as he's making the most of his talent and winning. Heck - he even speaks well of Oklahoma City, which is a city even WE laugh at.

I know that I am blaspheming, so cue the tirades in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Double O]

Presti had the luxury of having the 5th pick in the Durant draft(trading Ray Allen whom he inherited)and the 4th pick in the following draft.

He has drafted well, but he has also inherited a much better situation. Like I said, let's say Ferry gets LeBron, has the 5th pick in the same draft that LeBron was out of, has the 4th pick the following year, and doesn't let the Boozer debacle happen.

Our potential core?

Chris Paul
LBJ
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer

Ferry never had those opportunities, not even CLOSE.

Actually Boobie, Bosh was the 4th pick in the 2003 draft, so with the 5th pick, we would have been stuck with Dwyane Wade

 

[czvo]

Actually Boobie, Bosh was the 4th pick in the 2003 draft, so with the 5th pick, we would have been stuck with Dwyane Wade

Actually, I think you're both wrong. If the Cavs had the 5th pick in that draft, and had just taken LeBron, they likely would have gone with a point guard since they had just gotten their wing player and Boozer was their big. That would have left the team with.... Kirk Hinrich.

 

[JSS2306]

Hey guys first time poster and I hope you don't think I'm trying to troll here as I am a true Cavs fan but there is something I saw today that I have to get off my chest.

The rumor. Yes today hall of famer Calvin Murphy confirmed the rumors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvGaUDb6ChA

This man has high up sources and implore you all to check it out.

Before this was confirmed, I always wanted to point out that West is being treated for Bi Polar disorder. When alcohol and medications of this nature are mixed, things like this can happen. I never saw anyone point this fact out.
Since I believe this is true, I think we all need to reevaluate anything we believe is going to happen during the off season because the fact is, THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.

LeBron is vital to this city that I hold dear and I hope Delonte and Gloria BOTH realize they need to get out. I played basketball my whole life with the same group and if one of them tagged my mom it would shake me to the core. If my mom was irresponsible enough to make this decision it would shake me to my core.

Folks, as a first time and hopefully not the the last time poster, this hurts because now I feel that it actually happened. I'm saddened, for Lebron, for this city and for the dreams I had envisioned for us all to win a championship. This is from the heart. I thought this rumor was funny, but now I see it's a lot less funny than I thought.
Forget the trades, salary caps and possible free agents, we are on the verge of losing the best player of all time...

Thanks for your understanding of me posting what I believe is new critical information of what was once a ridiculous rumor. I feel for the man.